Filed under: Cymbidium Orchids
Question:
One day a month, the orchid house at the San Diego Zoo is open for a limited amount of hours. I have not seen it, but have heard it is beautiful. You may want to explore what day it is but I think it is in the third week of each month.
Response:
Thanks. My plane leaves Tue at noon from the SD airport so I hope I can at least go for a couple of hours prior to coming back to NC. I flew recently and the waits weren’t too bad plus I’ll have just a small carry on. Should be able to be ok arriving at 11 at the airport. Can you share with the group what it looks like at their Garden? Any links to pictures? RJ
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Thanks Ken. I met Andy last year at the AOS East Coast meeting in Virginia. Bought some plants from him that have done very well for me (like an Encyclia cochleata that never quits – I love that thing!). He also offered to show me his place in Cal if I went there. Guess what? Yesterday I called and he’s going to give me a short tour of his place after the show is over. Yipeee! This has got to be like going to the world’s biggest candy store 
I’ll check the other guys out that you suggest. I’d like to visit at least 4 nursery’s during the stay plus at least 2 of the local botanical gardens. Is Stewarts Orchids near San Diego? Cheers, RJ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Andy’s alone is worth the trip. Also Orchid Connection is interesting for Mexican species, but not easy to find. See http://www.orchidconnection.com/ and http://www.sdorchids.com/
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Stewart Orchids used to be in the Santa Barbara area but have since moved to Natchez, Mississippi. They are working on another color catalog. I went to Andy’s just over a year ago and thoroughly enjoyed my visit. The San Diego Zoo orchid greenhouses are open the third Tuesday of the month. — Matthew Swift Swift’s Orchids 6658 Carnelian St. Rancho Cucamonga, CA 91701 Phone/Fax 909-483-5590 http://www.swiftsorchids.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks Ken. I met Andy last year at the AOS East Coast meeting in Virginia. Bought some plants from him that have done very well for me (like an Encyclia cochleata that never quits – I love that thing!). He also offered to show me his place in Cal if I went there. Guess what? Yesterday I called and he’s going to give me a short tour of his place after the show is over. Yipeee! This has got to be like going to the world’s biggest candy store I’ll check the other guys out that you suggest. I’d like to visit at least 4 nursery’s during the stay plus at least 2 of the local botanical gardens. Is Stewarts Orchids near San Diego? Cheers, RJ Andy’s alone is worth the trip. Also Orchid Connection is interesting for Mexican species, but not easy to find. See http://www.orchidconnection.com/ and http://www.sdorchids.com/
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WOW! Santa Barbara to Nachez? Now, that’s a change of venue. — Ray Barkalow < First Rays Orchids http://www.firstrays.com Secure Online Ordering & Lots of Free Info!
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Thanks Matt. I’ll call around to see who’s available. Mexican species sound really appealing in particular. Are you going to be at the show? Love to meet other fellow RGO people. I’ll be wearing a name tag while I walk around with the letters "RGO" on the upper right corner just to see what happens. Cheers, RJ
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No I won’t be at the show but my parents will be. Look for Swift’s Orchids in booth #25. By the way, this is called the San Diego International Orchid FAIR, not show, don’t get it confused with the San Diego County Orchid Show in March. Matthew Swift Swift’s Orchids 6658 Carnelian St. Rancho Cucamonga, CA 91701 Phone/Fax 909-483-5590 http://www.swiftsorchids.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks Matt. I’ll call around to see who’s available. Mexican species sound really appealing in particular. Are you going to be at the show? Love to meet other fellow RGO people. I’ll be wearing a name tag while I walk around with the letters "RGO" on the upper right corner just to see what happens. Cheers, RJ
Response:
I would recommend any of the following nurseries. Most are located fairly closely. Bird Rock Tropicals Pamela Koide 6587 Black Rail Rd., Carlsbad, CA 92009 Tel (760) 438-9393, Fax (760) 438-1316 Web site www.birdrocktropicals.com 1. Monday-Saturday, 9 am-4 pm 2. Wholesale/Retail 3. Catalog available, no charge 4. Species, Hybrids, Intergenerics, Miltonia, Odontoglossum, etc. 6. I-5 to Poinsettia Ln., east to Black Rail Rd., then turn right and follow signs Cal Pacific Plant Farm Lynne and Wally Johnson 1122 Orpheus Ave. Leucadia, CA 92024 Mailing address: PO Box 461900 Escondido, CA 92046-1900 Tel (760) 436-0317 Fax (760) 436-3549 1. Monday-Friday, 8 am-4 pm, Saturday, 9 am-3 pm 2. Wholesale/Retail 4. Phalaenopsis, Dendrobium, Oncidium, Cattleya, Paphiopedilum and many others 5. Orchids/Supplies 6. Five minutes south of Legoland facing I-5 Fwy. at Leucadia Blvd. turnoff. Casa de las Orquideas Loren and Nancy Batchman 170 South Nardo Ave. Solana Beach, CA 92075 Phone and Fax (858) 755-7572 WWW www.orquideas.com 1. By appointment only 2. Wholesale/Retail 3. Catalog available, no charge 4. Cymbidium, Zygopetalum 5. Orchids 6. North San Diego county coastal area 7. No export G & B Orchid Laboratory, Inc. Barry L. Cohen, President 2426 Cherimoya Dr. Vista, CA 92084 Tel (888) 727-2760 Fax (760) 727-0017 Website at www.orchidsource.com/ 1. Monday-Friday, 8 am-4 pm; Saturday and Sunday, 10 am-4 pm 2. Wholesale/Retail 3. Catalog available, no charge 4. Vanda, Cattleya, Oncidium, Odontoglossum, Phalaenopsis, Dendrobium, Species, gift plants, fertilizers 5. Tissue culture; media, supplies, flasks, meristemming 6. North San Diego County Orchidanica Larry Moskovitz PO Box 2153 Fallbrook, CA 92088 Tel (760) 451-0060 Fax (760) 451-0045 Web site orchidmall.com/orchidanica/index.html 1. By appointment only and mail order; call a day or two ahead 2. Wholesale/Retail 3. Catalog available, no charge 4. Species (Cattleya, Dendrobium, Masdevallia, African, New Guinea and unusual); also miniatures and hybrids 5. Orchids 6. Just north of San Diego and 1 hr from Orange Co., CA 7. CITES export (minimum order) The Orchid Connection Jerry Boyd PO Box 86808, San Diego, CA 92138 Tel (619) 258-2169, Fax (619) 258-2169 Web site www.orchidconnection.com 1. By appointment only 2. Wholesale/Retail 3. Catalog available, no charge 4. Mexican species 5. Orchids 6. East San Diego County 7. No export
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Hi you all, I’ll be attending the San Diego show this year, 10/13 and 14. I’ll be in town 10/11-16 and want to check out the area orchid nurserys. I know Andy’s is nearby and I’ll try to make an appointment to see his place. Any other places not to miss? Appreciate any info about places to go and particularly nice gardens to visit and inexpensive places to stay. Thanks. RJ
Response:
Question:
While I love the accolades Sue posted, I agree with Kenneth – a transplant does not usually force spiking. Plants, on the other hand, will sometimes put on a good growth spurt, especially if they’ve been in an "unfriendly medium" environment, and if it was "thinking" about blooming anyway, the switch to a better environment may have just been the good excuse. — Ray Barkalow < First Rays Orchids http://www.firstrays.com Secure Online Ordering & Lots of Free Info!
Whenever a Phal. loses its roots to something ugly I’ve found that the fastest way to regrow them is to put the plant in your ceramic beads, strap it in place with a rubber band, and water/mist it thoroughly one or more times a day, new roots pop out incredibly fast and they’re fatter than if I’d used sphagnum, which used to be my weapon of choice for rootless Phals. A jolt of KLN added to the misting water seems to help, too. My next experiment with the semi-hydro growing will be with some Onc. that have been tricky in the past, I bet they’ll love it. — Posted from h0050da13c6f0.ne.mediaone.net [24.91.36.194] via Mailgate.ORG Server – http://www.Mailgate.ORG
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Hi, I’ve just recently ordered the ceramic beads from Ray. I have a Phal. that lost a bunch of roots & I wonder if using the ceramic beads would be the way to go? Right now he’s in sphagnum & at least, so far, he’s not dead. I don’t have any KLN at the moment, but I do have some Superthrive. Would that help roots to develop? Kathy K.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Whenever a Phal. loses its roots to something ugly I’ve found that the fastest way to regrow them is to put the plant in your ceramic beads, strap it in place with a rubber band, and water/mist it thoroughly one or more times a day, new roots pop out incredibly fast and they’re fatter than if I’d used sphagnum, which used to be my weapon of choice for rootless Phals. A jolt of KLN added to the misting water seems to help, too. My next experiment with the semi-hydro growing will be with some Onc. that have been tricky in the past, I bet they’ll love it. — Posted from h0050da13c6f0.ne.mediaone.net [24.91.36.194] via Mailgate.ORG Server – http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Response:
I’ve got a question about my semi-hydro plants i have one den and it loves it, its gotten huge (2 ft) and blooms like crazy but my Degarmora Flying High is not i repeate not looking happy, I put it in pure perlite….any thoughts?? is it just this cross that doesn’t like this situation? or is my plant fussy? ~K~
Response:
My Degarmoara Flying High just loves it. What grade perlite are you using? It’s really important that there be a lot of free air flow to the root system. Also, where was the plant in its growth cycle when you move it into the perlite? Unless it was just starting to grow new roots that could acclimate to the new environment, and plant can suffer from the transition. — Ray Barkalow < First Rays Orchids http://www.firstrays.com Secure Online Ordering & Lots of Free Info!
Response:
Thanks James! When I receive the cer. beads (which should be Mon. or Tues.) I’m going to try it. Kathy K.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, I think SuperThrive will help, Kathy. Normally, I use one drop per gallon. For this purpose, you may want to use two or three drops per gallon. In my opinion, however, this kind of stimulant is not one where if one drop is good, three drops are even better. I’ll throw this open to other members, but I don’t like to use a lot. Hi, I’ve just recently ordered the ceramic beads from Ray. I have a Phal. that lost a bunch of roots & I wonder if using the ceramic beads would be the way to go? Right now he’s in sphagnum & at least, so far, he’s not dead. I don’t have any KLN at the moment, but I do have some Superthrive. Would that help roots to develop? Kathy K. Whenever a Phal. loses its roots to something ugly I’ve found that the fastest way to regrow them is to put the plant in your ceramic beads, strap it in place with a rubber band, and water/mist it thoroughly one or more times a day, new roots pop out incredibly fast and they’re fatter than if I’d used sphagnum, which used to be my weapon of choice for rootless Phals. A jolt of KLN added to the misting water seems to help, too. My next experiment with the semi-hydro growing will be with some Onc. that have been tricky in the past, I bet they’ll love it. — Posted from h0050da13c6f0.ne.mediaone.net [24.91.36.194] via Mailgate.ORG Server – http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Response:
We have Cym Summer Perfume, a Chinese hybrid (not registered). Since we got Cym. Golden Elf from Ray in a semi-hydro situation, and had to repot it because the roots burst the plastic pot. I decided to move Summer Perfume. We only have a mid size or small pot. So I also decided to split the plant. Are you with me – SPLIT and TORE the roots to pieces getting the old mix out to go to semi-hydro. There are about a dozen bulbs (new and old combined) It had bloomed with 3 spikes on new growths this summer. It is now about 6 weeks later. You can imagine my surprise to realize each Cym instead of pouting has 2 new flower spikes. I should have plenty of perfume for the Denver Orchid Society’s (DOS) 50th Anniversary show in October. My Cym. Golden Elf also threw a new spike right after being repotted. Nice thank you’s these Semi-Hydro plants give out. SuE
Response:
Sue, Not to question the advantages of growing orchids in a semi-hydro fashion, but are you sure (!) that your Cymbidium gave you a spike because of the switch to a semi-hydro way of living ??? Let me just say I have my doubts… had you waited for another 6 weeks I’m sure the spikes would have come on their own in the old/another mix. Sure, you can sometimes "see" extra vigour when a plant is newly repotted, but spikes… kind regards, Kenneth Bruyninckx Akerne Orchids, Belgium http://www.akerne-orchids.com
Response:
While I love the accolades Sue posted, I agree with Kenneth – a transplant does not usually force spiking. Plants, on the other hand, will sometimes put on a good growth spurt, especially if they’ve been in an "unfriendly medium" environment, and if it was "thinking" about blooming anyway, the switch to a better environment may have just been the good excuse. — Ray Barkalow < First Rays Orchids http://www.firstrays.com Secure Online Ordering & Lots of Free Info!
Response:
Kenneth – I think you missed the line saying they had bloomed. I waited until they were done to repot. I marvel at the lack of a pout. I am used to having a Cym. pout after a repot and not do anything for several months. These have all perked up and sent out new (Secondary) spikes on this years growth. To me that is a miracle. I am sure I would not have these spikes if something did not make the plant happier that it had previously been. I just thank the Orchid Gods for small favors. SuE – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sue, Not to question the advantages of growing orchids in a semi-hydro fashion, but are you sure (!) that your Cymbidium gave you a spike because of the switch to a semi-hydro way of living ??? Let me just say I have my doubts… had you waited for another 6 weeks I’m sure the spikes would have come on their own in the old/another mix. Sure, you can sometimes "see" extra vigour when a plant is newly repotted, but spikes… kind regards, Kenneth Bruyninckx Akerne Orchids, Belgium http://www.akerne-orchids.com
Response:
Yes, I think SuperThrive will help, Kathy. Normally, I use one drop per gallon. For this purpose, you may want to use two or three drops per gallon. In my opinion, however, this kind of stimulant is not one where if one drop is good, three drops are even better. I’ll throw this open to other members, but I don’t like to use a lot. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’ve just recently ordered the ceramic beads from Ray. I have a Phal. that lost a bunch of roots & I wonder if using the ceramic beads would be the way to go? Right now he’s in sphagnum & at least, so far, he’s not dead. I don’t have any KLN at the moment, but I do have some Superthrive. Would that help roots to develop? Kathy K. Whenever a Phal. loses its roots to something ugly I’ve found that the fastest way to regrow them is to put the plant in your ceramic beads, strap it in place with a rubber band, and water/mist it thoroughly one or more times a day, new roots pop out incredibly fast and they’re fatter than if I’d used sphagnum, which used to be my weapon of choice for rootless Phals. A jolt of KLN added to the misting water seems to help, too. My next experiment with the semi-hydro growing will be with some Onc. that have been tricky in the past, I bet they’ll love it. — Posted from h0050da13c6f0.ne.mediaone.net [24.91.36.194] via Mailgate.ORG Server – http://www.Mailgate.ORG
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Question:
– Does anyone grow cymbidiums in clay pots? What are the pros and cons – for growing cyms in clay pots? Thanks to all for your posts. — Gideon Singer Webpage: members.home.net/gsinger Remove the ‘nospam’ to email
Response:
Thank you Kenneth for your post. My reason for wanting to use clay pots was that I summer my cyms outside in "Sunny" British Columbia which everybody knows is in a temperate rainforest. So if you want your cyms to get the max sunlight then you must be prepared for max rain as well. Thus my wanting to use clay pots. There is one problem with clay, that I have, which is that my Cattlyea roots attached themselves so firmly to the pot that in spite of soaking for an hour or more I am forced to break the pot in order to repot them. Gets pretty expansive! Regarding your comment of avoiding mixing clay and plastic in the same growing area I am guilty of that, but I find that with my small 8tx8ft greenhouse I have no choice as some of my plants do much better in clay then in plastic and others do better in plastic. Though I do understand why you made that comment.
- We grow all our potted orchids in either wire baskets or clay pots. – – Well yes, drying out might be a problem but that depends entirely on your – watering regime. I must admit that we only grow botanical Cymbidium species, – so none of the often so bulky hybrids. – Furthermore some of these species are smaller than many of the Cymbidiums – produced in bulk for the pot plant market, so the size of the pot does not – need to that large, hence the weight will be acceptable. – – On the other hand there are some species like Cymb. hookerianum, aloifolium, – …. (the ones with pendent spikes) which we prefer to grow in wire baskets. – You can of course pot these up as well, but the weight of clay pots hanging – from the greenhouse roof is something that you have to take into account. – Why not hang them up in plastic pots ? I’m sure watering in our wire baskets – is much easier then trying to wet a dried out Cymbidium pot (we can moisten – the potting mixture from all sides). – – Why would you use a clay pot for your Cymbidium ? Stability ! – Plants outside tend to fall over when the wind blows a bit, in a clay pot – you will not have this that quickly. – – In the end it all depends on what YOU want. – – Can you grow a Cymbidium to perfection in a clay pot ? Yes. – Can you grow the same plant to perfection in a plastic one ? Equally yes ! – Everything depends on how you are accustomed to treat your plants ? Heavy – watering, yes or no ? Can you find a clay pot to accomodate your plant, yes – or no ? – But most importantly of all: what do you use for the rest of your orchid – collection ? Try to avoid mixing plastic and clay pots inside the same – growing area. – – Hope this helps, – – Kenneth Bruyninckx – Akerne Orchids, Belgium – http://www.akerne-orchids.com – – — Gideon Singer Webpage: members.home.net/gsinger Remove the ‘nospam’ to email
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Does anyone grow cymbidiums in clay pots? What are the pros and cons for growing cyms in clay pots? — Gideon Singer Webpage: members.home.net/gsinger Remove the ‘nospam’ to email
Response:
Only problem I can think of is that the pots would dry out too fast. Matt
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone grow cymbidiums in clay pots? What are the pros and cons for growing cyms in clay pots? — Gideon Singer Webpage: members.home.net/gsinger Remove the ‘nospam’ to email
Response:
Good size plant plus clay pot is very heavy. SuE – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Only problem I can think of is that the pots would dry out too fast. Matt Does anyone grow cymbidiums in clay pots? What are the pros and cons for growing cyms in clay pots? — Gideon Singer Webpage: members.home.net/gsinger Remove the ‘nospam’ to email
Response:
We grow all our potted orchids in either wire baskets or clay pots. Well yes, drying out might be a problem but that depends entirely on your watering regime. I must admit that we only grow botanical Cymbidium species, so none of the often so bulky hybrids. Furthermore some of these species are smaller than many of the Cymbidiums produced in bulk for the pot plant market, so they size of the pot does not need to that large, hence the weight will be acceptable. On the other hand there are some species like Cymb. hookerianum, aloifolium, … (the ones with pendent spikes) which we prefer to grow in wire baskets. You can of course pot these up as well, but the weight of clay pots hanging from the greenhouse roof is something that you have to take into account. Why not hang them up in plastic pots ? I’m sure watering in our wire baskets is much easier then trying to wet a dried out Cymbidium pot (we can moisten the potting mixture from all sides). Why would you use a clay pot for your Cymbidium ? Stability ! Plants outside tend to fall over when the wind blows a bit, in a clay pot you will not have this that quickly. In the end it all depends on what YOU want. Can you grow a Cymbidium to perfection in a clay pot ? Yes. Can you grow the same plant to perfection in a plastic one ? Equally yes ! Everything depends on how you are accustomed to treat your plants ? Heavy watering, yes or no ? Can you find a clay pot to accomodate your plant, yes or no ? But most importantly of all: what do you use for the rest of your orchid collection ? Try to avoid mixing plastic and clay pots inside the same growing area. Hope this helps, Kenneth Bruyninckx Akerne Orchids, Belgium http://www.akerne-orchids.com
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Question:
There are a number of good resources for repotting cymbidiums. Most commercial sites have a Cymbidium culture sheet available.
I’m not familiar with any commercial sites. Should I just sign on to ‘google’ and type in cymbidium?
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also, lives in your area. Jim, you could probably help out. Diane
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Hi, Inheriting your grandfather’s cymbidiums and caring for them can be a daunting task. But you are in luck since you live in the East Bay area. There is a cymbidium club that meets monthly (4th Weds. at 7:30pm) at the Lake Merritt Garden Center. Or, since I live down the road from you in San Jose, if you’d like, maybe we could get together for a repotting session some afternoon. If you would like to do the latter, send me an e-mail directly to arrange a date/time. Be sure to include cym or repot on the subject line or I might delete it without opening it.
Response:
Well hello Jim, So glad you to see you back here! It has been a long time & you probably don’t even remember me. My first question ever was to you. I wish you would stay. Ladies & Gentlemen, Jim is the very "best" when it comes to info on cymbidiums! I call him Mr.CymJim! Cheers Wendy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Inheriting your grandfather’s cymbidiums and caring for them can be a daunting task. But you are in luck since you live in the East Bay area. There is a cymbidium club that meets monthly (4th Weds. at 7:30pm) at the Lake Merritt Garden Center. Or, since I live down the road from you in San Jose, if you’d like, maybe we could get together for a repotting session some afternoon. If you would like to do the latter, send me an e-mail directly to arrange a date/time. Be sure to include cym or repot on the subject line or I might delete it without opening it.
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I inhertied my grandfather’s cymbidiums many years ago and have not killed them by regular feeding, irregular watering, and mostly neglect. They are in an alcove (East San Francisco Bay Area) that gets filtered light and doesn’t freeze. They need repotting, I think, because water runs over them and off the top rather than into the roots. They are very crowded and there are some dead bulbs. A friend just recently repotted his collection and killed all but two. I would prefer to prevent this and do it right the first time. Do I use soil, bark, a combo of the two, clay pots, plastic pots (they are in plastic), water, feed, don’t water, don’t feed? Do I repot now or wait? How many bulbs to a pot? You know the routine and I am grateful in adnvance for your advise. P
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P, You can divide and repot them now but if they want to flower you will mess up thier flowering quality. You might end up with smaller flowers and they might not open properly. They will also not last near as long as they would normally. It also might not be a good idea to repot this time of year because they might not get established enough before the cold weather arrives. They will handle the cold much better when they are established. The best time to repot them is in Spring until the end of July. You can even repot as early as March if your plant is not going to flower or if it has finished flowering. For more on cymbidiums and repotting, go to www.cymbidium.org and you might even check out the recent discussions about cymbidiums in a similar format to this newsgroup. Matthew Swift Swift’s Orchids 6658 Carnelian St. Rancho Cucamonga, CA 91701 Phone/Fax 909-483-5590 http://www.swiftsorchids.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I inhertied my grandfather’s cymbidiums many years ago and have not killed them by regular feeding, irregular watering, and mostly neglect. They are in an alcove (East San Francisco Bay Area) that gets filtered light and doesn’t freeze. They need repotting, I think, because water runs over them and off the top rather than into the roots. They are very crowded and there are some dead bulbs. A friend just recently repotted his collection and killed all but two. I would prefer to prevent this and do it right the first time. Do I use soil, bark, a combo of the two, clay pots, plastic pots (they are in plastic), water, feed, don’t water, don’t feed? Do I repot now or wait? How many bulbs to a pot? You know the routine and I am grateful in adnvance for your advise. P
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Thank you! I do want to keep these orchids going for sentimental reasons.
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I inhertied my grandfather’s cymbidiums many years ago and have not killed them by regular feeding, irregular watering, and mostly neglect. They are in an alcove (East San Francisco Bay Area) that gets filtered light and doesn’t freeze. They need repotting, I think, because water runs over them and off the top rather than into the roots. They are very crowded and there are some dead bulbs. A friend just recently repotted his collection and killed all but two. I would prefer to prevent this and do it right the first time. Do I use soil, bark, a combo of the two, clay pots, plastic pots (they are in plastic), water, feed, don’t water, don’t feed? Do I repot now or wait? How many bulbs to a pot?
There are a number of good resources for repotting cymbidiums. Most commercial sites have a Cymbidium culture sheet available. http://www.cymbidium.org/ has a decent one linked right from their front page. Other good ones include: http://www.rodmclellan.com/html/orchids.html http://www.orchidweb.org/ I’d guess you’re probably past the prime repotting months. When I did mine back in June, I recall reading that you could go "as late as" that month. Unless they are really sickly, they’ll probably make it through another winter. If they bloom, do it after they finish, otherwise put it on your calendar for March, 2002. Crowded isn’t necessarily bad, and they can handle a lot of crowding – check out my cymbidium project at http://home.earthlink.net/~jmedgar3/OrchidCymb.html Those plants hadn’t bloomed since winter ‘97/98, and didn’t really get regular feeding or good sunlight. They had been on the north side of a house, getting a bit of summer late afternoon sun. I haven’t updated the current condition of the plants, but most are much happier. I’d say you should scout out an area that gets good morning sun, if possible, and tuck ‘em back under something so they don’t get cooked in the afternoon. My happiest ones get sun from daybreak until about 12:30 during the summer. Don’t use soil. At least not potting soil. There are some cymbidium mixes I’ve seen, but my most robust one has taken off this year after being repotted to fine fir bark, after languishing in some cymbidium mix for a year or so. Do use fine fir bark. I got a few bags down at OSH that were organic, and mixed in about 10% Vermiculite – only because I had a bunch of it – I would’ve used Perlite, but wanted to get rid of what I had. It’ll probably be a fatal error…. ;^) The "dead bulbs" probably aren’t, unless they are squishy. They are dormant "back bulbs" and can be resusitated. I was trying to keep a minimum of three bulbs together, though the compressed conditions from which they came often necessitated a few more. Hope some of this helps. — Jim
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Question:
I’ve seen those on my plants too. They are very destructive. I’ll spray with malathion to control them. But more often than not I’ll have to go over my collection by hand. Congrats on finding them before they strip your leaves and chew your spikes. K Barrett – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was looking at my Oncidiums for new flower spathes and found a new pest, (for me) that I would like to bring to your attention. They were brown little grashoppers, about 1/2 in big, hiding in the leaf axils, probably in wait for new spathes. I killed 3 on my Sharry baby. I have found my first bloom shoot there, by the way. This NG has been a very good influence for me. Doris .
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Grasshoppers love Orchids. Great munching. I have ONE in my gh. Now if I can get rid of him. He has eaten the ends of the flower sheaths on two catts, the leaves on a Ascda., a Oncidium, a Angracum, Catts, Cymbidium. All these lovely leaves and they have one scalloped side. I have sprayed Orthane twice – hopefully it got him. But from the droppings… I have little hope. I saw him about a month a go. He was then a little guy. Yes, I tried to get him when I first saw him. GRRRRRRRRRRRR. SuE – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was looking at my Oncidiums for new flower spathes and found a new pest, (for me) that I would like to bring to your attention. They were brown little grashoppers, about 1/2 in big, hiding in the leaf axils, probably in wait for new spathes. I killed 3 on my Sharry baby. I have found my first bloom shoot there, by the way. This NG has been a very good influence for me. Doris .
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Mine are outdoors. I guess I had better keep looking even though I killed what I saw. Thank heavens I am not squeamish about squooshing them. Doris
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Grasshoppers love Orchids. Great munching. I have ONE in my gh. Now if I can get rid of him. He has eaten the ends of the flower sheaths on two catts, the leaves on a Ascda., a Oncidium, a Angracum, Catts, Cymbidium. All these lovely leaves and they have one scalloped side. I have sprayed Orthane twice – hopefully it got him. But from the droppings… I have little hope. I saw him about a month a go. He was then a little guy. Yes, I tried to get him when I first saw him. GRRRRRRRRRRRR. SuE I was looking at my Oncidiums for new flower spathes and found a new pest, (for me) that I would like to bring to your attention. They were brown little grashoppers, about 1/2 in big, hiding in the leaf axils, probably in wait for new spathes. I killed 3 on my Sharry baby. I have found my first bloom shoot there, by the way. This NG has been a very good influence for me. Doris .
Response:
Doris, Have you tried neem oil for controlling the grasshopper-type insects? . . . Pam Everything Orchid Management System http://www.pe.net/~profpam/page3.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mine are outdoors. I guess I had better keep looking even though I killed what I saw. Thank heavens I am not squeamish about squooshing them. Doris Grasshoppers love Orchids. Great munching. I have ONE in my gh. Now if I can get rid of him. He has eaten the ends of the flower sheaths on two catts, the leaves on a Ascda., a Oncidium, a Angracum, Catts, Cymbidium. All these lovely leaves and they have one scalloped side. I have sprayed Orthane twice – hopefully it got him. But from the droppings… I have little hope. I saw him about a month a go. He was then a little guy. Yes, I tried to get him when I first saw him. GRRRRRRRRRRRR. SuE I was looking at my Oncidiums for new flower spathes and found a new pest, (for me) that I would like to bring to your attention. They were brown little grashoppers, about 1/2 in big, hiding in the leaf axils, probably in wait for new spathes. I killed 3 on my Sharry baby. I have found my first bloom shoot there, by the way. This NG has been a very good influence for me. Doris .
Response:
Am planning on going to Carter and Holmes’s open house next week, and will get my supplies then.They also sent me a gorgeous catalogue.It is very hard to decide on what to get. I wish I had a gh, but with all these trees(my own as well as my neighbors) I guess I can forget about it. I usually don’t spray,except in a dire emergency. As long as I can see the pests I can squoosh them, at least the big ones. Actually the only thing pestering me is scale and I have read enough about that to where I know how to deal with that prob. Neem is on my to get list, I have a new can of Orthene WP,mainly for fireants, but I find nothing really helps there. I’ll save it for my orchids,just in case I need to pull out the tall guns. Doris – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Doris, Have you tried neem oil for controlling the grasshopper-type insects? . . . Pam Everything Orchid Management System http://www.pe.net/~profpam/page3.html Mine are outdoors. I guess I had better keep looking even though I killed what I saw. Thank heavens I am not squeamish about squooshing them. Doris Grasshoppers love Orchids. Great munching. I have ONE in my gh. Now if I can get rid of him. He has eaten the ends of the flower sheaths on two catts, the leaves on a Ascda., a Oncidium, a Angracum, Catts, Cymbidium. All these lovely leaves and they have one scalloped side. I have sprayed Orthane twice – hopefully it got him. But from the droppings… I have little hope. I saw him about a month a go. He was then a little guy. Yes, I tried to get him when I first saw him. GRRRRRRRRRRRR. SuE I was looking at my Oncidiums for new flower spathes and found a new pest, (for me) that I would like to bring to your attention. They were brown little grashoppers, about 1/2 in big, hiding in the leaf axils, probably in wait for new spathes. I killed 3 on my Sharry baby. I have found my first bloom shoot there, by the way. This NG has been a very good influence for me. Doris .
Response:
(My apologies in advance to all those offended by this off-topic posting. I’ll never, ever, do it again. Well…not until next time anyway.) Doris: You’re right that the Orthene (acephate) doesn’t get rid of your fireant problem. That’s because it kills lots of the workers, but others cart the queen off to start a new colony before it gets to her. One product I know of will do it, though. Get some fire ant bait (Ortho used to sell it when I lived in Louisiana) that contains FENOXYCARB (they used to call it "Logic"). The worker ants pick it up and bring it back to the colony where it works by making the queen sterile. She stays alive, so the ants don’t panic and move out, and she lays eggs that don’t hatch. In a few weeks, they all die of old age. Sprinkle the bait very thinly around your whole yard in the Spring and Fall when the fireants are migrating to start new colonies. After doing this for one annual cycle, I’m completely convinced you’ll see a dramatic reduction in your fireant problem. When I used it on my front and back yards, there weren’t even any fireants on the neighbors yards anymore either. I guess that’s how far afield the ants forage. It was simply the best thing I ever saw for fireants. That’s after using lots of Orthene powder and other products containing clorpyrifos (Dursban) and diazinon. Fenoxycarb is of very low toxicity to humans; a lot less than acephate or any of those other agents I mentioned. If you want to read about it, go to http://ace.ace.orst.edu/info/extoxnet/pips/fenoxyca.htm (SNIP) fireants, but I find nothing really helps there.
(SNIP)
Response:
Don’t let the trees scare you away from a greenhouse. If you plan on a GH with direct solar exposure, then you’ll also be buying a shade cloth to knock down the intensity. My greenhouse sits under deciduous trees, and I use no shading at all, as it’s provided naturally. In winter, it’s unobstructed, and in the summer, it get early morning and late afternoon sun, with the midday rays filtered through the leaves. — Ray Barkalow –<– First Rays Orchids http://www.firstrays.com Secure Online Ordering & Lots of Free Info – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Am planning on going to Carter and Holmes’s open house next week, and will get my supplies then.They also sent me a gorgeous catalogue.It is very hard to decide on what to get. I wish I had a gh, but with all these trees(my own as well as my neighbors) I guess I can forget about it. I usually don’t spray,except in a dire emergency. As long as I can see the pests I can squoosh them, at least the big ones. Actually the only thing pestering me is scale and I have read enough about that to where I know how to deal with that prob. Neem is on my to get list, I have a new can of Orthene WP,mainly for fireants, but I find nothing really helps there. I’ll save it for my orchids,just in case I need to pull out the tall guns. Doris
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Doris, Have you tried neem oil for controlling the grasshopper-type insects? . . . Pam Everything Orchid Management System http://www.pe.net/~profpam/page3.html Mine are outdoors. I guess I had better keep looking even though I killed what I saw. Thank heavens I am not squeamish about squooshing them. Doris Grasshoppers love Orchids. Great munching. I have ONE in my gh. Now if I can get rid of him. He has eaten the ends of the flower sheaths on two catts, the leaves on a Ascda., a Oncidium, a Angracum, Catts, Cymbidium. All these lovely leaves and they have one scalloped side. I have sprayed Orthane twice – hopefully it got him. But from the droppings… I have little hope. I saw him about a month a go. He was then a little guy. Yes, I tried to get him when I first saw him. GRRRRRRRRRRRR. SuE I was looking at my Oncidiums for new flower spathes and found a new pest, (for me) that I would like to bring to your attention. They were brown little grashoppers, about 1/2 in big, hiding in the leaf axils, probably in wait for new spathes. I killed 3 on my Sharry baby. I have found my first bloom shoot there, by the way. This NG has been a very good influence for me. Doris .
Response:
I was looking at my Oncidiums for new flower spathes and found a new pest, (for me) that I would like to bring to your attention. They were brown little grashoppers, about 1/2 in big, hiding in the leaf axils, probably in wait for new spathes. I killed 3 on my Sharry baby. I have found my first bloom shoot there, by the way. This NG has been a very good influence for me. Doris .
Response:
Question:
Does anyone have photos of both these species? I have one plant in flower that has a pendant spike habit with the flower spike about 18 inches long. The flowers have deep mahogany stripes on all segments including the lip. The base color is a dark cream color. We imported these about ten years ago and this is the first time I flowered it. According to Flora of Malaya by Holttum it is Cym. simulans (C.aloifolium) and similar to C.pubescens. I was suprised by the spike habit having seen a plant in flower marked C. simulans at the Little Greenhouse outside Balt. MD. with an upright spike habit.
Response:
Ok, according to ‘The Genus Cymbidium’ Du Pui and Crib pg 62. they are the same species. Rolfe named it simulans in 1917 and L (?) had it as aloifolium in 1753. Du Pui and Cribb state that there is much variation in this subgenus in terms of leaf morphology, anatomy especailly in the callus. The subgenus is characterized by pendant to arching but only rarely suberect scapes. Later on pg 66 he states that Rolfe did a study on the species in 1917 and separated out simulans from 5 other subspecies, however the preserved specimen showing the erect scape also had the flowers inverted, hence they inferred that the scape actually was pendant. Du Pui and Cribb say it is now considered to be conspecific with aloifolium. K Barrett – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone have photos of both these species? I have one plant in flower that has a pendant spike habit with the flower spike about 18 inches long. The flowers have deep mahogany stripes on all segments including the lip. The base color is a dark cream color. We imported these about ten years ago and this is the first time I flowered it. According to Flora of Malaya by Holttum it is Cym. simulans (C.aloifolium) and similar to C.pubescens. I was suprised by the spike habit having seen a plant in flower marked C. simulans at the Little Greenhouse outside Balt. MD. with an upright spike habit.
Response:
What I want to know is why they had to use a name that’s SO easy to misspell and mispronounce – aliofolium actually even sounds better to me! PS – the spell check in Outlook Express suggested that aliofolium was a misspelling of alcoholism! Maybe they’ve got something there. — Ray Barkalow –<– First Rays Orchids http://www.firstrays.com Secure Online Ordering & Lots of Free Info
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, according to ‘The Genus Cymbidium’ Du Pui and Crib pg 62. they are the same species. Rolfe named it simulans in 1917 and L (?) had it as aloifolium in 1753. Du Pui and Cribb state that there is much variation in this subgenus in terms of leaf morphology, anatomy especailly in the callus. The subgenus is characterized by pendant to arching but only rarely suberect scapes. Later on pg 66 he states that Rolfe did a study on the species in 1917 and separated out simulans from 5 other subspecies, however the preserved specimen showing the erect scape also had the flowers inverted, hence they inferred that the scape actually was pendant. Du Pui and Cribb say it is now considered to be conspecific with aloifolium. K Barrett Does anyone have photos of both these species? I have one plant in flower that has a pendant spike habit with the flower spike about 18 inches long. The flowers have deep mahogany stripes on all segments including the lip. The base color is a dark cream color. We imported these about ten years ago and this is the first time I flowered it. According to Flora of Malaya by Holttum it is Cym. simulans (C.aloifolium) and similar to C.pubescens. I was suprised by the spike habit having seen a plant in flower marked C. simulans at the Little Greenhouse outside Balt. MD. with an upright spike habit.
Response:
Ha! I kept wanting to write aioli, a kind of chi-chi yuppie mayonaisse dipping sauce for veggies. Am I from California or what? K Barrett – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What I want to know is why they had to use a name that’s SO easy to misspell and mispronounce – aliofolium actually even sounds better to me! PS – the spell check in Outlook Express suggested that aliofolium was a misspelling of alcoholism! Maybe they’ve got something there. — Ray Barkalow –<– First Rays Orchids http://www.firstrays.com Secure Online Ordering & Lots of Free Info Ok, according to ‘The Genus Cymbidium’ Du Pui and Crib pg 62. they are the same species. Rolfe named it simulans in 1917 and L (?) had it as aloifolium in 1753. Du Pui and Cribb state that there is much variation in this subgenus in terms of leaf morphology, anatomy especailly in the callus. The subgenus is characterized by pendant to arching but only rarely suberect scapes. Later on pg 66 he states that Rolfe did a study on the species in 1917 and separated out simulans from 5 other subspecies, however the preserved specimen showing the erect scape also had the flowers inverted, hence they inferred that the scape actually was pendant. Du Pui and Cribb say it is now considered to be conspecific with aloifolium. K Barrett Does anyone have photos of both these species? I have one plant in flower that has a pendant spike habit with the flower spike about 18 inches long. The flowers have deep mahogany stripes on all segments including the lip. The base color is a dark cream color. We imported these about ten years ago and this is the first time I flowered it. According to Flora of Malaya by Holttum it is Cym. simulans (C.aloifolium) and similar to C.pubescens. I was suprised by the spike habit having seen a plant in flower marked C. simulans at the Little Greenhouse outside Balt. MD. with an upright spike habit.
Response:
What I want to know is why they had to use a name that’s SO easy to misspell and mispronounce –
Sorry but I did spell it correctly-at least according to the spelling found in the Holttum book.
Response:
Ha! I kept wanting to write aioli, a kind of chi-chi yuppie mayonaisse dipping sauce for veggies. Am I from California or what?
Yes, you are from California. Aioli is a traditional Italian condiment. I don’t think the Godfather would be pleased to hear that aioli is chi-chi.
Response:
Oh, you spelled it correctly, all right. I was just commenting on the odd spelling the name has. — Ray Barkalow –<– First Rays Orchids http://www.firstrays.com Secure Online Ordering & Lots of Free Info
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What I want to know is why they had to use a name that’s SO easy to misspell and mispronounce – Sorry but I did spell it correctly-at least according to the spelling found in the Holttum book.
Response:
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Vines/9686/other.htm Has a photo of simulans in bloom… if they are right. http://www.bms.ac.th/~m4_6/thai_orkid/rose.htm The summary for this Chinese (Traditional) page contains characters that cannot be correctly displayed in english. The Photos are labeled in english. WWW.OrchidWeb.com was also listed as a site – but I could not get it to load tonight. Good Luck. SuE – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone have photos of both these species? I have one plant in flower that has a pendant spike habit with the flower spike about 18 inches long. The flowers have deep mahogany stripes on all segments including the lip. The base color is a dark cream color. We imported these about ten years ago and this is the first time I flowered it. According to Flora of Malaya by Holttum it is Cym. simulans (C.aloifolium) and similar to C.pubescens. I was suprised by the spike habit having seen a plant in flower marked C. simulans at the Little Greenhouse outside Balt. MD. with an upright spike habit.
Response:
Question:
Hello Edward, How are things in your neck of the woods? Temps etc? A previous poster Albertia is correct, if you cut the flower spike to put in a vase it will not last as long as leaving it on the plant. This doesn’t seem to bother standard cymbidiums? Cheers Wendy
| Should you cut the spike of Phals, in the same way that it is recommended | you cut Cymbidium Spikes, when all the flowers are open? Or is it better to | leave the spike on the plant? | Would appreciate any advice. | Ted | | | |
Response:
Cyms have a tendency to greatly speed up the sequencing of blooms. They open in order, but the first is not months before the last. Often a Phal. will not open the last, or even grow the tip bud, until after the first several blooms are gone. I would leave the spike on the Phal. thru its bloom cycle. Then the question is "Do I cut between the oldest flower and the first node, OR do I rest the plant by cutting off the entire spike?" How stong is your plant? Does it need the relief of not supporting the flower production and resting? Some say it is just, "Heads, Yes; Tails, NO." Welcome to the Wonderful World of Orchids! And The way it GROWS best for you IS the best way for YOU to grow IT. SuE – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | Should you cut the spike of Phals, in the same way that it is recommended | you cut Cymbidium Spikes, when all the flowers are open? Or is it better to | leave the spike on the plant? | Would appreciate any advice. | Ted | | | |
Response:
The spike should be left on the plant ss long as the blooms are not all falling off–a mater of several months If you cut the spike as soon as all flowers are open, you will enjoy their beauty for a much shorter time.
Response:
Most hobbyists cut the spike off after the initial flowering has finished. If you don’t cut off the spike the plant may bloom itself to death. — Matthew Swift Swift’s Orchids 6658 Carnelian St. Rancho Cucamonga, CA 91701 Phone/Fax 909-483-5590 http://www.swiftsorchids.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Should you cut the spike of Phals, in the same way that it is recommended you cut Cymbidium Spikes, when all the flowers are open? Or is it better to leave the spike on the plant? Would appreciate any advice. Ted
Response:
Should you cut the spike of Phals, in the same way that it is recommended you cut Cymbidium Spikes, when all the flowers are open? Or is it better to leave the spike on the plant? Would appreciate any advice. Ted
Response:
As long as your plant is healthy and happy, it is a matter of personal preference. Leaving the spikes on, or cutting them just below the last faded flower, may lead to secondary spiking [more flowers sooner]. Cutting the spikes all the way off will force the plant to put its energy into growing, and next years’ flowers. If the plant should become stressed for any reason, then it is best to cut them off. Good growing, — Kenni Judd Juno Beach Orchids http://www.jborchids.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Should you cut the spike of Phals, in the same way that it is recommended you cut Cymbidium Spikes, when all the flowers are open? Or is it better to leave the spike on the plant? Would appreciate any advice. Ted
Response:
Question:
Hi, All, One point not previously mentioned is: Do not fertilize or apply pesticide when temperatures reach above the 80 degree mark as applications of this sort could result in adverse conditions. . . . Pam Everything Orchid Management System http://www.pe.net/~profpam/page3.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Of course, Merritt could plant rocks, have them thrive and make them bloom. Sounds like you have finally given them the light they need. Are the newer bulbs bigger too? About August 1st I would reduce or eliminate high levels of nitrogen and by Sept 1st switch to a high Phosphoric acid and Potassium formula. A number of years ago, Merritt Huntington, owner of Kensington Orchids, did an experiment on cymbidiums being grown for cut flowers. The plants were divided into equal numbers of similar types, and placed on opposite sides of the greenhouse. One side was fed a high N formula until the first of Aug, and then switched to a low N formula; the other group were fed a balanced formula the entire year. He could see no difference in flower production between the two sides. From that time on he has fed a balanced formula because it is less trouble.
Response:
Oh, great, that means I can’t fertilize or spray ALL summer?? Or are just Cyms that sensitive? Reka profpam schrieb: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, All, One point not previously mentioned is: Do not fertilize or apply pesticide when temperatures reach above the 80 degree mark as applications of this sort could result in adverse conditions. . . . Pam Everything Orchid Management System http://www.pe.net/~profpam/page3.html
Response:
It is true that you should be very careful with pesticides when temperatures are hot. Hot leaves can increase the phytotoxic properties of many pesticides, especially oil based preparations. If you must spray during hot weather, do it early in the morning or on cloud covered days when leaves and air temps are cool and provide extra shade and air movement for a few days to keep them cool, especially if the pesticide you are using is new to you or your orchids and you don’t know for sure how heat changes the plant’s response to it… I remember from botany class that photosynthesis slows down and/or stops during very hot periods of the day. There is a lower end range for cool temperatures too. I forget the exact temperatures quoted by the book and/or professor. I remember being astounded at the temperature given as it was lower than most of the temps during summer in my area. Mid 80’s I think… There are different types of photosynthesis, and plants adapted to very hot weather use a different chemical process to make food than plants adapted to less hot temperatures, a process where heat is not disruptive to the making of food. Personally I don’t stop fertilizing during hot weather, but I also water and fertilize early in the morning when it is cool and plants are active and I work like the devil to keep temps in my greenhouse from getting above 85, especially now that I have discovered Masdevallias. Al
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, great, that means I can’t fertilize or spray ALL summer?? Or are just Cyms that sensitive? Reka profpam schrieb: Hi, All, One point not previously mentioned is: Do not fertilize or apply pesticide when temperatures reach above the 80 degree mark as applications of this sort could result in adverse conditions. . . . Pam Everything Orchid Management System http://www.pe.net/~profpam/page3.html
Response:
Hi Harvey, I did actually mean high ‘K’ as in Potassium Oxide (K20)…. as written. Usually expressed in a ratio ie; NPK. Also known at Potash or the bloosom boosting element in the fertilizer. eg. NPK 5.7.10. where K=10. Although P (forms of Phosphorus) can affect the quality of blooms and flowering in some genera… as I understand it the ratio change to a low N and high K which is the critical ratio with regard fertilizer in initiating blooms in Cyms. Best regards Alan http://www.tissuequickplantlabs.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – TQPL, Did you mean to say "change around August/September to a fertilizer with a high P" instead of high K as written? Hi Gene, Flowering cymbidiums can be influenced by both genetics, growth cycle, environment and feeding. Generally free-blooming forms perform best, some cultivars are more difficult than others. Don’t expect your Cymbidiums to flower every year…. 3 out of 5 years is probably good though some will be better than that. Late seasonal repotting can delay flowering, try to repot when necessary before the end of April in the northern hemispere. Plants often flower well when potbound! Leaving old flower spikes on is a mistake, you should preferably cut your flower spikes when all the blooms are open, that then allows the plant to start sending up it’s new growth (mid season flowering varieties) which should be made up by July/August (summer ). From these new pseudobulbs you can expect the flower buds to form. You can carry on feeding normal fertilizer until these bulbs are made up. Plants are considered to be heavy feeders for orchids. If potted in bark they require more food than if growing in rockwool You should also give your plants good light, outdoors if your climate is suitable. Excessively high temperatures (above 80 degrees F) will slow plant growth and should always be avoided. High temperatures in a greenhouse can cause problems… which is why many have success with plants growing outdoors. A properly cooled and non shaded greenhouse for UK conditions works well. Expect your Cymbidium leaves to take on a good yellow colour. Dark green should be avoided and indicates not enough light. If all goes well, change around August/September to a fertilizer with a high K. Then allow the plants a temperature drop to the low 50 degrees F, this often can be achieved by following the natural autumnal (fall) night drop in temperatures. (Perhaps even the low 40’s at night for stubbon plants). Continue to grow your plants in a cool area. Remember importantly that high night temperatures should be avoided when buds form….aim for 50-55 degrees F. Higher than that and you risk your buds aborting. That is very important. You will also have problems it you try and grow your plants as houseplants all of the year round… they simply do not get enough light. That was the sort of info we used to give to customers when growing glasshouses of Cymbidiums and it worked most of the time. Hope this is of some help Best regards Alan http://www.tissuequickplantlabs.com I remember reading somewhere to stop fertilizing cymbidiums July 1. Since I can’t get the routine right to get mine to bloom I’m willing to try….But I was thinking it would make more sense to switch to a low nitrogen fertilizer. I have some 10-60-10 Schultz fertilizer…….would that be a good idea? Any Cymbidium growers out there? Gene
Response:
Hi, I would agree with most of what you have written except that I have found that with Chinese cymbidiums, one can repot in a larger pot without disturbing the root system and still have the plant bloom again the next season. Dividing the plant, however, may delay flowering but not always. . . . Pam Everything Orchid Management System http://www.pe.net/~profpam/page3.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Gene, Flowering cymbidiums can be influenced by both genetics, growth cycle, environment and feeding. Generally free-blooming forms perform best, some cultivars are more difficult than others. Don’t expect your Cymbidiums to flower every year…. 3 out of 5 years is probably good though some will be better than that. Late seasonal repotting can delay flowering, try to repot when necessary before the end of April in the northern hemispere. Plants often flower well when potbound! Leaving old flower spikes on is a mistake, you should preferably cut your flower spikes when all the blooms are open, that then allows the plant to start sending up it’s new growth (mid season flowering varieties) which should be made up by July/August (summer ). From these new pseudobulbs you can expect the flower buds to form. You can carry on feeding normal fertilizer until these bulbs are made up. Plants are considered to be heavy feeders for orchids. If potted in bark they require more food than if growing in rockwool You should also give your plants good light, outdoors if your climate is suitable. Excessively high temperatures (above 80 degrees F) will slow plant growth and should always be avoided. High temperatures in a greenhouse can cause problems… which is why many have success with plants growing outdoors. A properly cooled and non shaded greenhouse for UK conditions works well. Expect your Cymbidium leaves to take on a good yellow colour. Dark green should be avoided and indicates not enough light. If all goes well, change around August/September to a fertilizer with a high K. Then allow the plants a temperature drop to the low 50 degrees F, this often can be achieved by following the natural autumnal (fall) night drop in temperatures. (Perhaps even the low 40’s at night for stubbon plants). Continue to grow your plants in a cool area. Remember importantly that high night temperatures should be avoided when buds form….aim for 50-55 degrees F. Higher than that and you risk your buds aborting. That is very important. You will also have problems it you try and grow your plants as houseplants all of the year round… they simply do not get enough light. That was the sort of info we used to give to customers when growing glasshouses of Cymbidiums and it worked most of the time. Hope this is of some help Best regards Alan http://www.tissuequickplantlabs.com I remember reading somewhere to stop fertilizing cymbidiums July 1. Since I can’t get the routine right to get mine to bloom I’m willing to try….But I was thinking it would make more sense to switch to a low nitrogen fertilizer. I have some 10-60-10 Schultz fertilizer…….would that be a good idea? Any Cymbidium growers out there? Gene
Response:
Just to add to Al’s notes about photosynthesis and temperature (I can never leave well enough alone). C3 plants don’t care quite as much about temperature as C4 plants (C4 including most of your thin-leaved orchids, and CAM being the rest of the orchids, as a VERY general rule). Photosynthesis, in VERY general terms, is highest between 65F and 85F, peaking around 77F. C4 is an adaptation to dry environments, and CAM is common in desert plants (and, oddly enough, some orchids). CAM makes use of respiration at night- the reactions go on during the day without respiration, and the plants "breathe" at night. Go figure. More info here: http://www.geocities.com/~marylois/archiv14.html -AJHicks Chandler, AZ
Response:
Of course, Merritt could plant rocks, have them thrive and make them bloom.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sounds like you have finally given them the light they need. Are the newer bulbs bigger too? About August 1st I would reduce or eliminate high levels of nitrogen and by Sept 1st switch to a high Phosphoric acid and Potassium formula. A number of years ago, Merritt Huntington, owner of Kensington Orchids, did an experiment on cymbidiums being grown for cut flowers. The plants were divided into equal numbers of similar types, and placed on opposite sides of the greenhouse. One side was fed a high N formula until the first of Aug, and then switched to a low N formula; the other group were fed a balanced formula the entire year. He could see no difference in flower production between the two sides. From that time on he has fed a balanced formula because it is less trouble.
Response:
Sounds like you have finally given them the light they need. Are the newer bulbs bigger too? About August 1st I would reduce or eliminate high levels of nitrogen and by Sept 1st switch to a high Phosphoric acid and Potassium formula. A number of years ago, Merritt Huntington, owner of Kensington Orchids, did an experiment on cymbidiums being grown for cut flowers. The plants were divided into equal numbers of similar types, and placed on opposite sides of the greenhouse. One side was fed a high N formula until the first of Aug, and then switched to a low N formula; the other group were fed a balanced formula the entire year. He could see no difference in flower production between the two sides. From that time on he has fed a balanced formula because it is less trouble.
Response:
Sounds like you have finally given them the light they need. Are the newer bulbs bigger too? About August 1st I would reduce or eliminate high levels of nitrogen and by Sept 1st switch to a high Phosphoric acid and Potassium formula. Grow More makes a 6-30-30 water soluble formula which can be obtained through me. — Matthew Swift Swift’s Orchids 6658 Carnelian St. Rancho Cucamonga, CA 91701 Phone/Fax 909-483-5590 http://www.swiftsorchids.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am in the DC area. I grow them outdoors until mid november then they come into the house in a bright window. I am giving them much more light this year and the plants have taken on that golden green color that I see in the nursuries. Where does one find a fertilizer high in Potassium? I see high Nitrogen and High Phospherous….but I don’t recall seeing high Potassium. Gene P. S. As always thanks for the discussion and information….This is a great newsgroup.
Response:
I am in the DC area. I grow them outdoors until mid november then they come into the house in a bright window. I am giving them much more light this year and the plants have taken on that golden green color that I see in the nursuries. Where does one find a fertilizer high in Potassium? I see high Nitrogen and High Phospherous….but I don’t recall seeing high Potassium. Gene P. S. As always thanks for the discussion and information….This is a great newsgroup.
Response:
Gene, Can you tell us where you live and how you are growing your cymbidiums? You don’t need fertilizer to force cymbidiums to bloom but it does help. There must be other reasons for them not to bloom. Check out www.cymbidium.org for more information — Matthew Swift Swift’s Orchids 6658 Carnelian St. Rancho Cucamonga, CA 91701 Phone/Fax 909-483-5590 http://www.swiftsorchids.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I remember reading somewhere to stop fertilizing cymbidiums July 1. Since I can’t get the routine right to get mine to bloom I’m willing to try….But I was thinking it would make more sense to switch to a low nitrogen fertilizer. I have some 10-60-10 Schultz fertilizer…….would that be a good idea? Any Cymbidium growers out there? Gene
Response:
TQPL, Did you mean to say "change around August/September to a fertilizer with a high P" instead of high K as written? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Gene, Flowering cymbidiums can be influenced by both genetics, growth cycle, environment and feeding. Generally free-blooming forms perform best, some cultivars are more difficult than others. Don’t expect your Cymbidiums to flower every year…. 3 out of 5 years is probably good though some will be better than that. Late seasonal repotting can delay flowering, try to repot when necessary before the end of April in the northern hemispere. Plants often flower well when potbound! Leaving old flower spikes on is a mistake, you should preferably cut your flower spikes when all the blooms are open, that then allows the plant to start sending up it’s new growth (mid season flowering varieties) which should be made up by July/August (summer ). From these new pseudobulbs you can expect the flower buds to form. You can carry on feeding normal fertilizer until these bulbs are made up. Plants are considered to be heavy feeders for orchids. If potted in bark they require more food than if growing in rockwool You should also give your plants good light, outdoors if your climate is suitable. Excessively high temperatures (above 80 degrees F) will slow plant growth and should always be avoided. High temperatures in a greenhouse can cause problems… which is why many have success with plants growing outdoors. A properly cooled and non shaded greenhouse for UK conditions works well. Expect your Cymbidium leaves to take on a good yellow colour. Dark green should be avoided and indicates not enough light. If all goes well, change around August/September to a fertilizer with a high K. Then allow the plants a temperature drop to the low 50 degrees F, this often can be achieved by following the natural autumnal (fall) night drop in temperatures. (Perhaps even the low 40’s at night for stubbon plants). Continue to grow your plants in a cool area. Remember importantly that high night temperatures should be avoided when buds form….aim for 50-55 degrees F. Higher than that and you risk your buds aborting. That is very important. You will also have problems it you try and grow your plants as houseplants all of the year round… they simply do not get enough light. That was the sort of info we used to give to customers when growing glasshouses of Cymbidiums and it worked most of the time. Hope this is of some help Best regards Alan http://www.tissuequickplantlabs.com I remember reading somewhere to stop fertilizing cymbidiums July 1. Since I can’t get the routine right to get mine to bloom I’m willing to try….But I was thinking it would make more sense to switch to a low nitrogen fertilizer. I have some 10-60-10 Schultz fertilizer…….would that be a good idea? Any Cymbidium growers out there? Gene
Response:
Yes you are the one, remembered that you grow cyms & build orchid data bases! I wondered about this too, the Magnesium, "food for thought" *g* What type of fert. do you use & how often etc.? Gene if you read this, I have always heard that cyms are heavy feeders compared to other orchids? Cheers Wendy
| Wendy, | | Although you possibly meant another Pam, I’ve never used Epsom Salts on | my collection of cymbidiums. Instead there are so many fertilizers with | magnesium and other elements that are beneficial to orchids so why have | to fertilize twice. In addition, I am wondering whether Epsom Salts | might contribute to excessive salt build-up, especially if one is not | using ro or filtered water. | | . . . Pam |
| | Hi Gene, I grow mine in S.Cal. & use 20-20-20 at 1/4 strength & water once a week. flush once every odd month as well. | I read somewhere that some growers feed Epsom Salts in June, July & August. | I wonder where Jim Kawasaki is, he always has good info? | Pam? Where are you? | Cheers Wendy | | I remember reading somewhere to stop fertilizing cymbidiums July 1. | | | | Since I can’t get the routine right to get mine to bloom I’m willing to | | try….But I was thinking it would make more sense to switch to a low | | nitrogen fertilizer. I have some 10-60-10 Schultz fertilizer…….would | | that be a good idea? | | | | Any Cymbidium growers out there? | | | | Gene | | | |
Response:
Hi Gene, Flowering cymbidiums can be influenced by both genetics, growth cycle, environment and feeding. Generally free-blooming forms perform best, some cultivars are more difficult than others. Don’t expect your Cymbidiums to flower every year…. 3 out of 5 years is probably good though some will be better than that. Late seasonal repotting can delay flowering, try to repot when necessary before the end of April in the northern hemispere. Plants often flower well when potbound! Leaving old flower spikes on is a mistake, you should preferably cut your flower spikes when all the blooms are open, that then allows the plant to start sending up it’s new growth (mid season flowering varieties) which should be made up by July/August (summer ). From these new pseudobulbs you can expect the flower buds to form. You can carry on feeding normal fertilizer until these bulbs are made up. Plants are considered to be heavy feeders for orchids. If potted in bark they require more food than if growing in rockwool You should also give your plants good light, outdoors if your climate is suitable. Excessively high temperatures (above 80 degrees F) will slow plant growth and should always be avoided. High temperatures in a greenhouse can cause problems… which is why many have success with plants growing outdoors. A properly cooled and non shaded greenhouse for UK conditions works well. Expect your Cymbidium leaves to take on a good yellow colour. Dark green should be avoided and indicates not enough light. If all goes well, change around August/September to a fertilizer with a high K. Then allow the plants a temperature drop to the low 50 degrees F, this often can be achieved by following the natural autumnal (fall) night drop in temperatures. (Perhaps even the low 40’s at night for stubbon plants). Continue to grow your plants in a cool area. Remember importantly that high night temperatures should be avoided when buds form….aim for 50-55 degrees F. Higher than that and you risk your buds aborting. That is very important. You will also have problems it you try and grow your plants as houseplants all of the year round… they simply do not get enough light. That was the sort of info we used to give to customers when growing glasshouses of Cymbidiums and it worked most of the time. Hope this is of some help Best regards Alan http://www.tissuequickplantlabs.com
I remember reading somewhere to stop fertilizing cymbidiums July 1. Since I can’t get the routine right to get mine to bloom I’m willing to try….But I was thinking it would make more sense to switch to a low nitrogen fertilizer. I have some 10-60-10 Schultz
fertilizer…….would – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – that be a good idea? Any Cymbidium growers out there? Gene
Response:
I remember reading somewhere to stop fertilizing cymbidiums July 1. Since I can’t get the routine right to get mine to bloom I’m willing to try….But I was thinking it would make more sense to switch to a low nitrogen fertilizer. I have some 10-60-10 Schultz fertilizer…….would that be a good idea? Any Cymbidium growers out there? Gene
Response:
Hi Gene, I grow mine in S.Cal. & use 20-20-20 at 1/4 strength & water once a week. flush once every odd month as well. I read somewhere that some growers feed Epsom Salts in June, July & August. I wonder where Jim Kawasaki is, he always has good info? Pam? Where are you? Cheers Wendy
| I remember reading somewhere to stop fertilizing cymbidiums July 1. | | Since I can’t get the routine right to get mine to bloom I’m willing to | try….But I was thinking it would make more sense to switch to a low | nitrogen fertilizer. I have some 10-60-10 Schultz fertilizer…….would | that be a good idea? | | Any Cymbidium growers out there? | | Gene | |
Response:
Wendy, Although you possibly meant another Pam, I’ve never used Epsom Salts on my collection of cymbidiums. Instead there are so many fertilizers with magnesium and other elements that are beneficial to orchids so why have to fertilize twice. In addition, I am wondering whether Epsom Salts might contribute to excessive salt build-up, especially if one is not using ro or filtered water. . . . Pam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Gene, I grow mine in S.Cal. & use 20-20-20 at 1/4 strength & water once a week. flush once every odd month as well. I read somewhere that some growers feed Epsom Salts in June, July & August. I wonder where Jim Kawasaki is, he always has good info? Pam? Where are you? Cheers Wendy | I remember reading somewhere to stop fertilizing cymbidiums July 1. | | Since I can’t get the routine right to get mine to bloom I’m willing to | try….But I was thinking it would make more sense to switch to a low | nitrogen fertilizer. I have some 10-60-10 Schultz fertilizer…….would | that be a good idea? | | Any Cymbidium growers out there? | | Gene | |
Response:
Question:
Well I’m not a major nursery (I have about 300 plants) and I can afford it. A little goes along way. I think what a couple of people in my society did was go in together for a bottle but hey, it doesn’t go bad and I plan to grow orchids for a long time and I plan to treat twice a year so I’ll eventually use it up. You do not need a pesticide license to buy it. Neem isn’t all that cheap either and this works much better and doesn’t smell as bad. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeanne, Just looked up the price for Enstar II. At 84.00, one would have to own a major nursery not to mention that only a major nursery would require a large quantity. (Also wondering whether a pesticide permit is required like Gnatrol. No, I think I would use Volck Oil if the occasion arose again. I used it about three years ago on a couple of indoor plants, and the problem never returned. I then used Volck on an awarded, large, outdoor cymbidium more than a year ago (about 2 applications of it), and it bloomed every year there after. But, if you can afford 84.00 for Enstar II then I would say use it. . . . Pam Where do do you get Enstar II? Jeanne Enstar II is very effective and much less toxic (its specific component is an insect growth regulator that has no effect on mammals, and other non-insects) than most general purpose insecticides. It is easy to use and I have even used it in my house with no ill effects (after careful review of the fact sheets). I generally treat my collection twice a year, once in the spring before they go outside and once in the fall when they come back inside. It doesn’t kill molluscs or mites so those critters need to be treated seperately and I now plan to use a molluscicide in the fall about a week before bringing them inside for the winter. Just did a treatment a couple of days ago because they are currently outside and I’ve had an ongoing problem with bush snails that I haven’t wanted to treat indoors. I don’t have mites so I haven’t had to use anything for them. I beg to differ, but the MOST effective treatment for scale is a potent insecticide, not oils. Many will work, I’ve found Methidathion (Supracide) to be very effective. If you can’t get that, acephate (Orthene) will do it in multiple treatments. You have a choice – fool around with it for weeks/months as it progessively infests all your other plants, or get out the big guns right away and eradicate it. Now, many others will post about using alcohol and Q-tips, various oils, even home-grown mixtures of cleaners and cooking oil. You can go that route, but you will probably spend a whole lot of time and energy chasing scale though your collection, until you finally resign yourself to using a proper insecticide. If you have only a plant or two and no particular interest in buying and using appropriate pesticides, take the plant back to the seller and demand your money back. Then, go get another from a different source. All you Sunspray Ultrafine, Volck, Neem, and 30-wt motor oil users out there don’t panic. Your favorite oil isn’t totally worthless, just not in the competition for effectiveness on a heavily infested plant as the original poster described. Once an infestation is hammered as described above, oils can fit into the prevention niche nicely. There is always a stray scale bug larva spontaneously generating somewhere in your greenhouse. The oil will make sure it doesn’t spawn the next great scale immigration to the Promised Land – your plants. As always, "follow the directions carefully", as was advised below, with anything you use. Heck, you can poison yourself with your plant fertilizer if you try hard enough. Anita, The most effective treatment for scale is Volck Oil. Follow the directions carefully. . . . Pam Everything Orchid Management System http://www.pe.net/~profpam/page3.html Hi, I have recently purchased a Catt that has shown up with a terrible scale problem. Luckily I had kept it away from the others for a couple weeks but have never had to deal with this. It has mealy bugs, the almost yellow scale and the brown scale.Thwe critter looked clean when it arrived but things just keep showing up! Would appreciate help on handeling this problem(Came from a well established breeder too!).Thanks bunches!Anita Hi there Pam, A friend had his whole Cattleya collection infested with this whitish scale. It hides everywhere & when really bad gets to the leaves. It is very hard to get rid of. He has given me some backends of choice plants & once they have new growth, then I see the scale? I keep them quarentined & treated for a couple repots! Cheers Wendy | Wendy, | | I thought the yellow spots to be doings of aphids just as with rose | petals. | | . . . Pam | | | Hello Ian, Wondering if you have checked under the leaves? Scale will do this! They seem to suck out the chlorophyl, but have been told that they release a poison/acid which makes the yellow spots? | Cheers Wendy | | I have only a few orchids but one of my cattleyas has developed yellow spots | | all over all the old leaves averaging 10 mm. The only new leaf looks | | healthy and green. | | | | What action can I take or is too late? | | | | Ian Harvey | | | |
Response:
Oh and it says it kills thrips and mites but I don’t have those so can’t speak to that.
A friend gave me some Mesurol – I think you need a pesticide license to buy it though but check. Its chemical name is
3,5-Dimethyl-4-(methylthio)phenol methylcarbamate and seems to excite the slugs and snails to death. http://www.gowanco.com/products/Mesurol75w.htm
http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/insect-mite/fenitrothion-methylp… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hiocarb/insect-prof-methiocarb.html It sure works. I put it on one evening and the next morning found two big slugs that I didn’t know I had plus a number of dead bush snails (that I could see) and probably many more I didn’t see. I have one complaint with it. It is a wetable powder and leaves a white residue on the plants that seems to last through several waterings and rain storms. Good I guess as it keeps working and gets rid of any hatching eggs but it is somewhat unsightly and makes me less inclined to pick up plants. I would not use it in my house or even plan on bringing plants into the house for up to a week whereas I feel comfortable using Enstar II in my house. It has been approved for food crops with a week’s clearance so it can’t be all that bad. It is used in fruit crops as a bird repellent so maybe the squirrels will also find the taste distasteful. It kills honey bees so do be careful with its use, we need to preserve our honey bee populations. What do you use on Snails? I keep finding a few of the minuscule size. SueE Enstar II is very effective and much less toxic (its specific component is an insect growth regulator that has no effect on mammals, and other non-insects) than most general purpose insecticides. It is easy to use and I have even used it in my house with no ill effects (after careful review of the fact sheets). I generally treat my collection twice a year, once in the spring before they go outside and once in the fall when they come back inside. It doesn’t kill molluscs or mites so those critters need to be treated seperately and I now plan to use a molluscicide in the fall about a week before bringing them inside for the winter. Just did a treatment a couple of days ago because they are currently outside and I’ve had an ongoing problem with bush snails that I haven’t wanted to treat indoors. I don’t have mites so I haven’t had to use anything for them. I beg to differ, but the MOST effective treatment for scale is a potent insecticide, not oils. Many will work, I’ve found Methidathion (Supracide) to be very effective. If you can’t get that, acephate (Orthene) will do it in multiple treatments. You have a choice – fool around with it for weeks/months as it progessively infests all your other plants, or get out the big guns right away and eradicate it. Now, many others will post about using alcohol and Q-tips, various oils, even home-grown mixtures of cleaners and cooking oil. You can go that route, but you will probably spend a whole lot of time and energy chasing scale though your collection, until you finally resign yourself to using a proper insecticide. If you have only a plant or two and no particular interest in buying and using appropriate pesticides, take the plant back to the seller and demand your money back. Then, go get another from a different source. All you Sunspray Ultrafine, Volck, Neem, and 30-wt motor oil users out there don’t panic. Your favorite oil isn’t totally worthless, just not in the competition for effectiveness on a heavily infested plant as the original poster described. Once an infestation is hammered as described above, oils can fit into the prevention niche nicely. There is always a stray scale bug larva spontaneously generating somewhere in your greenhouse. The oil will make sure it doesn’t spawn the next great scale immigration to the Promised Land – your plants. As always, "follow the directions carefully", as was advised below, with anything you use. Heck, you can poison yourself with your plant fertilizer if you try hard enough. Anita, The most effective treatment for scale is Volck Oil. Follow the directions carefully. . . . Pam Everything Orchid Management System http://www.pe.net/~profpam/page3.html Hi, I have recently purchased a Catt that has shown up with a terrible scale problem. Luckily I had kept it away from the others for a couple weeks but have never had to deal with this. It has mealy bugs, the almost yellow scale and the brown scale.Thwe critter looked clean when it arrived but things just keep showing up! Would appreciate help on handeling this problem(Came from a well established breeder too!).Thanks bunches!Anita Hi there Pam, A friend had his whole Cattleya collection infested with this whitish scale. It hides everywhere & when really bad gets to the leaves. It is very hard to get rid of. He has given me some backends of choice plants & once they have new growth, then I see the scale? I keep them quarentined & treated for a couple repots! Cheers Wendy | Wendy, | | I thought the yellow spots to be doings of aphids just as with rose | petals. | | . . . Pam | | | Hello Ian, Wondering if you have checked under the leaves? Scale will do this! They seem to suck out the chlorophyl, but have been told that they release a poison/acid which makes the yellow spots? | Cheers Wendy | | I have only a few orchids but one of my cattleyas has developed yellow spots | | all over all the old leaves averaging 10 mm. The only new leaf looks | | healthy and green. | | | | What action can I take or is too late? | | | | Ian Harvey | | | |
Response:
I get mine from a place in Portland OR and I always manage to forget the name – Dale, help! Teufel Nursery, Inc. http://www.teufel.com/
Response:
Jeanne, Just looked up the price for Enstar II. At 84.00, one would have to own a major nursery not to mention that only a major nursery would require a large quantity. (Also wondering whether a pesticide permit is required like Gnatrol. No, I think I would use Volck Oil if the occasion arose again. I used it about three years ago on a couple of indoor plants, and the problem never returned. I then used Volck on an awarded, large, outdoor cymbidium more than a year ago (about 2 applications of it), and it bloomed every year there after. But, if you can afford 84.00 for Enstar II then I would say use it. . . . Pam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Where do do you get Enstar II? Jeanne Enstar II is very effective and much less toxic (its specific component is an insect growth regulator that has no effect on mammals, and other non-insects) than most general purpose insecticides. It is easy to use and I have even used it in my house with no ill effects (after careful review of the fact sheets). I generally treat my collection twice a year, once in the spring before they go outside and once in the fall when they come back inside. It doesn’t kill molluscs or mites so those critters need to be treated seperately and I now plan to use a molluscicide in the fall about a week before bringing them inside for the winter. Just did a treatment a couple of days ago because they are currently outside and I’ve had an ongoing problem with bush snails that I haven’t wanted to treat indoors. I don’t have mites so I haven’t had to use anything for them.
Question:
Orchid Guide Digest. It is an email list about orchids and it shows up here sometimes twice a day. It is actually much more active than rgo. Personally I find the format of an email list more difficult to wade through. I like the threaded nature of rgo and the web forum on the AOS website. I like rgo best because I can open and close threads and it is just more organize-able. But ODG is often interesting, more learn-ed, and has a ‘personality’ as distinct as rgo, though noticeably different. Lots of people use it. You will recognize many of the names. Here is a link in case you want to subscribe. http://www.orchidguide.com/ogd/digest.htm
What does OGD stand for? Let’s see the 1st letter, could be Orchid??? Cheers Wendy
| indeed, subgenus it is. Dr Braem (if that is who you meant by Guido) is too | smart to be caught traveling through the likes of this wild west settlement | town we call rgo. But he is always interesting to read in OGD. | | 
Al | | Continue to scroll down to view all of my comments. | | I was speaking of interspecies breeding not intergeneric breeding. | Within | the genus Phalaenopsis there are a half dozen or so grouping often | called | subtribes which are more closely related to each other than they are to | other members of the genus. Some of these breed outside there own | subtribe | only after complaining loudly and then fertility is reduced in the | hybrid. | | Sarcanthae is a subtribe which includes phalaenopsis, vanda, sarcochilus, | aerides, etc. Groups within a genus such as phalaenopsis are called | subgenus. | | | Fellow orchidists, | I have a question regarding intergeneric hybrids. As we all know | certain | genera of orchids can be hybridized. One example that comes to mind | is | a | Vanda and Phalaenopsis combination called Vandanaeposis. This one is | a | very odd and unexpected hybrid, since the genera seems so different | from | each other. | | Plants are put into the following classifications: | | Family | Subfamily | Tribe | Subtribe | Genus | subgenus | Species | variety | | | Its not very surprising that Aeriedies and Vanda can be hybridized | since | the plants at least look almost the same…and thus we have | Aeridovandas. | | My question is this, are there no rules as to what can and can’t be | hybridized when it comes to orchid genera? | | Most species within a genus can breed together, but breeding species and | hybrids outside of that genus will all depend on genetics and the | chromosome | counts. | | Take for instance, Dendrobium Superbum or Pierardeii which have cane | like | structures and Dendrobium Chrysotoxum or Aggregatum which have | bulbous | structures — they are of the same genera, yet I can’t imagine a | hybrind | among the puny bulbous Aggregatum and tall cane like Superbum (or is | there?). | | In summary, I’d like to know why an intergeneric cross between Vanda | and | Phalenopsis works while a cross between Cymbidium and Dendrobium is | unheard of. | | -Sadat. | | You might be surprised to found out the following facts about orchid | classification: | | Cypripedioideae (paphs, phrags, cyps) have their own subfamily | | In the Epidendroideae Subfamily/Epidendreae Tribe – Laeliinae (catts, | laelias, sophronitis, brassavola, epi’s,) are in the same tribe as the | Pleurothallidinae and the Dendrobiums | | Included in the Vandoideae Subfamily/Cymbidieae tribe are the Cymbidiums, | the Oncidiinae (onc, odont, brassia, milt), the Catasetinae (Catasetum, | Cycnoches, Mormodes) and the Stanhopeinae | | So you can see that the Dendrobiums and the Cymbidiums are in different | Subfamilies while the Vandas and Phalaenopsis are in the same Subtribe. | | Matthew Swift | Swift’s Orchids | 6658 Carnelian St. | Rancho Cucamonga, CA 91701 | Phone/Fax 909-483-5590 | http://www.swiftsorchids.com | | P.S. I hope Guido doesn’t get involved in this thread. :-) | | | |
Response:
Oh? ….. Thanks ~ ~ ~ blushing~ ~ ~ with embarressment! Cheers Wendy
| Orchid Guide Digest. It is an email list about orchids and it shows up here | sometimes twice a day. It is actually much more active than rgo. | Personally I find the format of an email list more difficult to wade | through. I like the threaded nature of rgo and the web forum on the AOS | website. I like rgo best because I can open and close threads and it is | just more organize-able. But ODG is often interesting, more learn-ed, and | has a ‘personality’ as distinct as rgo, though noticeably different. Lots | of people use it. You will recognize many of the names. | | Here is a link in case you want to subscribe. | http://www.orchidguide.com/ogd/digest.htm | |
| What does OGD stand for? Let’s see the 1st letter, could be Orchid??? | Cheers Wendy
| | indeed, subgenus it is. Dr Braem (if that is who you meant by Guido) is | too | | smart to be caught traveling through the likes of this wild west | settlement | | town we call rgo. But he is always interesting to read in OGD. | | | | Al | | | | Continue to scroll down to view all of my comments. | | | | I was speaking of interspecies breeding not intergeneric breeding. | | Within | | the genus Phalaenopsis there are a half dozen or so grouping often | | called | | subtribes which are more closely related to each other than they are | to | | other members of the genus. Some of these breed outside there own | | subtribe | | only after complaining loudly and then fertility is reduced in the | | hybrid. | | | | Sarcanthae is a subtribe which includes phalaenopsis, vanda, | sarcochilus, | | aerides, etc. Groups within a genus such as phalaenopsis are called | | subgenus. | | | | | | Fellow orchidists, | | I have a question regarding intergeneric hybrids. As we all know | | certain | | genera of orchids can be hybridized. One example that comes to | mind | | is | | a | | Vanda and Phalaenopsis combination called Vandanaeposis. This one | is | | a | | very odd and unexpected hybrid, since the genera seems so | different | | from | | each other. | | | | Plants are put into the following classifications: | | | | Family | | Subfamily | | Tribe | | Subtribe | | Genus | | subgenus | | Species | | variety | | | | | | Its not very surprising that Aeriedies and Vanda can be hybridized | | since | | the plants at least look almost the same…and thus we have | | Aeridovandas. | | | | My question is this, are there no rules as to what can and can’t | be | | hybridized when it comes to orchid genera? | | | | Most species within a genus can breed together, but breeding species and | | hybrids outside of that genus will all depend on genetics and the | | chromosome | | counts. | | | | Take for instance, Dendrobium Superbum or Pierardeii which have | cane | | like | | structures and Dendrobium Chrysotoxum or Aggregatum which have | | bulbous | | structures — they are of the same genera, yet I can’t imagine a | | hybrind | | among the puny bulbous Aggregatum and tall cane like Superbum (or | is | | there?). | | | | In summary, I’d like to know why an intergeneric cross between | Vanda | | and | | Phalenopsis works while a cross between Cymbidium and Dendrobium | is | | unheard of. | | | | -Sadat. | | | | You might be surprised to found out the following facts about orchid | | classification: | | | | Cypripedioideae (paphs, phrags, cyps) have their own subfamily | | | | In the Epidendroideae Subfamily/Epidendreae Tribe – Laeliinae (catts, | | laelias, sophronitis, brassavola, epi’s,) are in the same tribe as the | | Pleurothallidinae and the Dendrobiums | | | | Included in the Vandoideae Subfamily/Cymbidieae tribe are the | Cymbidiums, | | the Oncidiinae (onc, odont, brassia, milt), the Catasetinae (Catasetum, | | Cycnoches, Mormodes) and the Stanhopeinae | | | | So you can see that the Dendrobiums and the Cymbidiums are in different | | Subfamilies while the Vandas and Phalaenopsis are in the same Subtribe. | | | | Matthew Swift | | Swift’s Orchids | | 6658 Carnelian St. | | Rancho Cucamonga, CA 91701 | | Phone/Fax 909-483-5590 | | http://www.swiftsorchids.com | | | | P.S. I hope Guido doesn’t get involved in this thread. :-) | | | | | | | | | | |
Response:
My goodness!! Wendy!! Its an email list. To subscribe or unsubscribe to the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD), send the command: subscribe orchids-digest or unsubscribe orchids-digest – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What does OGD stand for? Let’s see the 1st letter, could be Orchid??? Cheers Wendy | indeed, subgenus it is. Dr Braem (if that is who you meant by Guido) is too | smart to be caught traveling through the likes of this wild west settlement | town we call rgo. But he is always interesting to read in OGD. | | Al | | Continue to scroll down to view all of my comments. | | I was speaking of interspecies breeding not intergeneric breeding. | Within | the genus Phalaenopsis there are a half dozen or so grouping often | called | subtribes which are more closely related to each other than they are to | other members of the genus. Some of these breed outside there own | subtribe | only after complaining loudly and then fertility is reduced in the | hybrid. | | Sarcanthae is a subtribe which includes phalaenopsis, vanda, sarcochilus, | aerides, etc. Groups within a genus such as phalaenopsis are called | subgenus. | | | Fellow orchidists, | I have a question regarding intergeneric hybrids. As we all know | certain | genera of orchids can be hybridized. One example that comes to mind | is | a | Vanda and Phalaenopsis combination called Vandanaeposis. This one is | a | very odd and unexpected hybrid, since the genera seems so different | from | each other. | | Plants are put into the following classifications: | | Family | Subfamily | Tribe | Subtribe | Genus | subgenus | Species | variety | | | Its not very surprising that Aeriedies and Vanda can be hybridized | since | the plants at least look almost the same…and thus we have | Aeridovandas. | | My question is this, are there no rules as to what can and can’t be | hybridized when it comes to orchid genera? | | Most species within a genus can breed together, but breeding species and | hybrids outside of that genus will all depend on genetics and the | chromosome | counts. | | Take for instance, Dendrobium Superbum or Pierardeii which have cane | like | structures and Dendrobium Chrysotoxum or Aggregatum which have | bulbous | structures — they are of the same genera, yet I can’t imagine a | hybrind | among the puny bulbous Aggregatum and tall cane like Superbum (or is | there?). | | In summary, I’d like to know why an intergeneric cross between Vanda | and | Phalenopsis works while a cross between Cymbidium and Dendrobium is | unheard of. | | -Sadat. | | You might be surprised to found out the following facts about orchid | classification: | | Cypripedioideae (paphs, phrags, cyps) have their own subfamily | | In the Epidendroideae Subfamily/Epidendreae Tribe – Laeliinae (catts, | laelias, sophronitis, brassavola, epi’s,) are in the same tribe as the | Pleurothallidinae and the Dendrobiums | | Included in the Vandoideae Subfamily/Cymbidieae tribe are the Cymbidiums, | the Oncidiinae (onc, odont, brassia, milt), the Catasetinae (Catasetum, | Cycnoches, Mormodes) and the Stanhopeinae | | So you can see that the Dendrobiums and the Cymbidiums are in different | Subfamilies while the Vandas and Phalaenopsis are in the same Subtribe. | | Matthew Swift | Swift’s Orchids | 6658 Carnelian St. | Rancho Cucamonga, CA 91701 | Phone/Fax 909-483-5590 | http://www.swiftsorchids.com | | P.S. I hope Guido doesn’t get involved in this thread. :-) | | | |
Response:
What does OGD stand for? Let’s see the 1st letter, could be Orchid??? Cheers Wendy
| indeed, subgenus it is. Dr Braem (if that is who you meant by Guido) is too | smart to be caught traveling through the likes of this wild west settlement | town we call rgo. But he is always interesting to read in OGD. | | Al | | Continue to scroll down to view all of my comments. | | I was speaking of interspecies breeding not intergeneric breeding. | Within | the genus Phalaenopsis there are a half dozen or so grouping often | called | subtribes which are more closely related to each other than they are to | other members of the genus. Some of these breed outside there own | subtribe | only after complaining loudly and then fertility is reduced in the | hybrid. | | Sarcanthae is a subtribe which includes phalaenopsis, vanda, sarcochilus, | aerides, etc. Groups within a genus such as phalaenopsis are called | subgenus. | | | Fellow orchidists, | I have a question regarding intergeneric hybrids. As we all know | certain | genera of orchids can be hybridized. One example that comes to mind | is | a | Vanda and Phalaenopsis combination called Vandanaeposis. This one is | a | very odd and unexpected hybrid, since the genera seems so different | from | each other. | | Plants are put into the following classifications: | | Family | Subfamily | Tribe | Subtribe | Genus | subgenus | Species | variety | | | Its not very surprising that Aeriedies and Vanda can be hybridized | since | the plants at least look almost the same…and thus we have | Aeridovandas. | | My question is this, are there no rules as to what can and can’t be | hybridized when it comes to orchid genera? | | Most species within a genus can breed together, but breeding species and | hybrids outside of that genus will all depend on genetics and the | chromosome | counts. | | Take for instance, Dendrobium Superbum or Pierardeii which have cane | like | structures and Dendrobium Chrysotoxum or Aggregatum which have | bulbous | structures — they are of the same genera, yet I can’t imagine a | hybrind | among the puny bulbous Aggregatum and tall cane like Superbum (or is | there?). | | In summary, I’d like to know why an intergeneric cross between Vanda | and | Phalenopsis works while a cross between Cymbidium and Dendrobium is | unheard of. | | -Sadat. | | You might be surprised to found out the following facts about orchid | classification: | | Cypripedioideae (paphs, phrags, cyps) have their own subfamily | | In the Epidendroideae Subfamily/Epidendreae Tribe – Laeliinae (catts, | laelias, sophronitis, brassavola, epi’s,) are in the same tribe as the | Pleurothallidinae and the Dendrobiums | | Included in the Vandoideae Subfamily/Cymbidieae tribe are the Cymbidiums, | the Oncidiinae (onc, odont, brassia, milt), the Catasetinae (Catasetum, | Cycnoches, Mormodes) and the Stanhopeinae | | So you can see that the Dendrobiums and the Cymbidiums are in different | Subfamilies while the Vandas and Phalaenopsis are in the same Subtribe. | | Matthew Swift | Swift’s Orchids | 6658 Carnelian St. | Rancho Cucamonga, CA 91701 | Phone/Fax 909-483-5590 | http://www.swiftsorchids.com | | P.S. I hope Guido doesn’t get involved in this thread. :-) | | | |
Response:
I was speaking of interspecies breeding not intergeneric breeding. Within the genus Phalaenopsis there are a half dozen or so grouping often called subtribes which are more closely related to each other than they are to other members of the genus. Some of these breed outside there own subtribe only after complaining loudly and then fertility is reduced in the hybrid. One of the reasons colchicine treatment of Phrags and Paphs is so exciting to breeders is that it alters the chromosomes in species and opens up new avenues for hybridizing that were closed because of chromosome incompatibility between species in these genus. It is true that species of orchids will interbreed but it is a common mistake to thing they do it with wanton abandon. I know what I know from reading and from listening to real experts. This is about as specific as I can explain it and if pressed to expand my statements I would be forced to go hide under the bed. Perhaps so of the real experts in this group could address the genetic difficulties of interspecies and intergeneric hybridizing.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is it a general rule of genetics and heredity that intergeneric hybridizations may yield offsprings but most often the offsprings are sterile? Now granted they are sterile, but does it stop them from being able to be hybridized once again, or does their sterility mean a dead end? I guess what I am asking is, say we have a successful offspring from crossing a cymbidium with a dendrobium but the offspring is sterile. Does its sterility mean it can’t form seed pods by self polination or it can’t be fertilized at ALL naturally? With orchids, I sometimes wish I had access to a lab and a gene splicer (not to mention the skills of a geneticist). It is even weirder than simply not being able to cross cymbidiums with dendrobiums. Believe it or not there are many Phal species in the various subtribes which, while they can mate and produce viable offspring, are sufficiently different genetically that these offspring are sterile. In most, however, offspring are only somewhat, not totally, infertile. Paph species have this same problem, I believe. Many of their hybrids are sterile or nearly so and in a short number of generations many breeding lines fail due to sterility. Vandas and Phals are in the same tribe… the Sarcanthes. So they are closely related. As are Aerides etc. Cyms and Dends are more distantly related. Rebecca Northen’s book ‘Home Orchid Growing’ is organized along these ‘tribal’ lines, so like genera are discussed together. (if you wanted a handy reference and a dang good book) K Barrett Fellow orchidists, I have a question regarding intergeneric hybrids. As we all know certain genera of orchids can be hybridized. One example that comes to mind is a Vanda and Phalaenopsis combination called Vandanaeposis. This one is a very odd and unexpected hybrid, since the genera seems so different from each other. Its not very surprising that Aeriedies and Vanda can be hybridized since the plants at least look almost the same…and thus we have Aeridovandas. My question is this, are there no rules as to what can and can’t be hybridized when it comes to orchid genera? Take for instance, Dendrobium Superbum or Pierardeii which have cane like structures and Dendrobium Chrysotoxum or Aggregatum which have bulbous structures — they are of the same genera, yet I can’t imagine a hybrind among the puny bulbous Aggregatum and tall cane like Superbum (or is there?). In summary, I’d like to know why an intergeneric cross between Vanda and Phalenopsis works while a cross between Cymbidium and Dendrobium is unheard of. -Sadat.
Response:
Fellow orchidists, I have a question regarding intergeneric hybrids. As we all know certain genera of orchids can be hybridized. One example that comes to mind is a Vanda and Phalaenopsis combination called Vandanaeposis. This one is a very odd and unexpected hybrid, since the genera seems so different from each other. Its not very surprising that Aeriedies and Vanda can be hybridized since the plants at least look almost the same…and thus we have Aeridovandas. My question is this, are there no rules as to what can and can’t be hybridized when it comes to orchid genera? Take for instance, Dendrobium Superbum or Pierardeii which have cane like structures and Dendrobium Chrysotoxum or Aggregatum which have bulbous structures — they are of the same genera, yet I can’t imagine a hybrind among the puny bulbous Aggregatum and tall cane like Superbum (or is there?). In summary, I’d like to know why an intergeneric cross between Vanda and Phalenopsis works while a cross between Cymbidium and Dendrobium is unheard of. -Sadat.
Response:
Vandas and Phals are in the same tribe… the Sarcanthes. So they are closely related. As are Aerides etc. Cyms and Dends are more distantly related. Rebecca Northen’s book ‘Home Orchid Growing’ is organized along these ‘tribal’ lines, so like genera are discussed together. (if you wanted a handy reference and a dang good book) K Barrett – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fellow orchidists, I have a question regarding intergeneric hybrids. As we all know certain genera of orchids can be hybridized. One example that comes to mind is a Vanda and Phalaenopsis combination called Vandanaeposis. This one is a very odd and unexpected hybrid, since the genera seems so different from each other. Its not very surprising that Aeriedies and Vanda can be hybridized since the plants at least look almost the same…and thus we have Aeridovandas. My question is this, are there no rules as to what can and can’t be hybridized when it comes to orchid genera? Take for instance, Dendrobium Superbum or Pierardeii which have cane like structures and Dendrobium Chrysotoxum or Aggregatum which have bulbous structures — they are of the same genera, yet I can’t imagine a hybrind among the puny bulbous Aggregatum and tall cane like Superbum (or is there?). In summary, I’d like to know why an intergeneric cross between Vanda and Phalenopsis works while a cross between Cymbidium and Dendrobium is unheard of. -Sadat.
Response:
It is even weirder than simply not being able to cross cymbidiums with dendrobiums. Believe it or not there are many Phal species in the various subtribes which, while they can mate and produce viable offspring, are sufficiently different genetically that these offspring are sterile. In most, however, offspring are only somewhat, not totally, infertile. Paph species have this same problem, I believe. Many of their hybrids are sterile or nearly so and in a short number of generations many breeding lines fail due to sterility.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Vandas and Phals are in the same tribe… the Sarcanthes. So they are closely related. As are Aerides etc. Cyms and Dends are more distantly related. Rebecca Northen’s book ‘Home Orchid Growing’ is organized along these ‘tribal’ lines, so like genera are discussed together. (if you wanted a handy reference and a dang good book) K Barrett Fellow orchidists, I have a question regarding intergeneric hybrids. As we all know certain genera of orchids can be hybridized. One example that comes to mind is a Vanda and Phalaenopsis combination called Vandanaeposis. This one is a very odd and unexpected hybrid, since the genera seems so different from each other. Its not very surprising that Aeriedies and Vanda can be hybridized since the plants at least look almost the same…and thus we have Aeridovandas. My question is this, are there no rules as to what can and can’t be hybridized when it comes to orchid genera? Take for instance, Dendrobium Superbum or Pierardeii which have cane like structures and Dendrobium Chrysotoxum or Aggregatum which have bulbous structures — they are of the same genera, yet I can’t imagine a hybrind among the puny bulbous Aggregatum and tall cane like Superbum (or is there?). In summary, I’d like to know why an intergeneric cross between Vanda and Phalenopsis works while a cross between Cymbidium and Dendrobium is unheard of. -Sadat.
Response:
So I was missing the concept of "tribes". Thanks for your answer, and I’ll keep an eye for that book. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Vandas and Phals are in the same tribe… the Sarcanthes. So they are closely related. As are Aerides etc. Cyms and Dends are more distantly related. Rebecca Northen’s book ‘Home Orchid Growing’ is organized along these ‘tribal’ lines, so like genera are discussed together. (if you wanted a handy reference and a dang good book) K Barrett Fellow orchidists, I have a question regarding intergeneric hybrids. As we all know certain genera of orchids can be hybridized. One example that comes to mind is a Vanda and Phalaenopsis combination called Vandanaeposis. This one is a very odd and unexpected hybrid, since the genera seems so different from each other. Its not very surprising that Aeriedies and Vanda can be hybridized since the plants at least look almost the same…and thus we have Aeridovandas. My question is this, are there no rules as to what can and can’t be hybridized when it comes to orchid genera? Take for instance, Dendrobium Superbum or Pierardeii which have cane like structures and Dendrobium Chrysotoxum or Aggregatum which have bulbous structures — they are of the same genera, yet I can’t imagine a hybrind among the puny bulbous Aggregatum and tall cane like Superbum (or is there?). In summary, I’d like to know why an intergeneric cross between Vanda and Phalenopsis works while a cross between Cymbidium and Dendrobium is unheard of. -Sadat.
Response:
indeed, subgenus it is. Dr Braem (if that is who you meant by Guido) is too smart to be caught traveling through the likes of this wild west settlement town we call rgo. But he is always interesting to read in OGD. Al
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Continue to scroll down to view all of my comments. I was speaking of interspecies breeding not intergeneric breeding. Within the genus Phalaenopsis there are a half dozen or so grouping often called subtribes which are more closely related to each other than they are to other members of the genus. Some of these breed outside there own subtribe only after complaining loudly and then fertility is reduced in the hybrid. Sarcanthae is a subtribe which includes phalaenopsis, vanda, sarcochilus, aerides, etc. Groups within a genus such as phalaenopsis are called subgenus. Fellow orchidists, I have a question regarding intergeneric hybrids. As we all know certain genera of orchids can be hybridized. One example that comes to mind is a Vanda and Phalaenopsis combination called Vandanaeposis. This one is a very odd and unexpected hybrid, since the genera seems so different from each other. Plants are put into the following classifications: Family Subfamily Tribe Subtribe Genus subgenus Species variety Its not very surprising that Aeriedies and Vanda can be hybridized since the plants at least look almost the same…and thus we have Aeridovandas. My question is this, are there no rules as to what can and can’t be hybridized when it comes to orchid genera? Most species within a genus can breed together, but breeding species and hybrids outside of that genus will all depend on genetics and the chromosome counts. Take for instance, Dendrobium Superbum or Pierardeii which have cane like structures and Dendrobium Chrysotoxum or Aggregatum which have bulbous structures — they are of the same genera, yet I can’t imagine a hybrind among the puny bulbous Aggregatum and tall cane like Superbum (or is there?). In summary, I’d like to know why an intergeneric cross between Vanda and Phalenopsis works while a cross between Cymbidium and Dendrobium is unheard of. -Sadat. You might be surprised to found out the following facts about orchid classification: Cypripedioideae (paphs, phrags, cyps) have their own subfamily In the Epidendroideae Subfamily/Epidendreae Tribe – Laeliinae (catts, laelias, sophronitis, brassavola, epi’s,) are in the same tribe as the Pleurothallidinae and the Dendrobiums Included in the Vandoideae Subfamily/Cymbidieae tribe are the Cymbidiums, the Oncidiinae (onc, odont, brassia, milt), the Catasetinae (Catasetum, Cycnoches, Mormodes) and the Stanhopeinae So you can see that the Dendrobiums and the Cymbidiums are in different Subfamilies while the Vandas and Phalaenopsis are in the same Subtribe. Matthew Swift Swift’s Orchids 6658 Carnelian St. Rancho Cucamonga, CA 91701 Phone/Fax 909-483-5590 http://www.swiftsorchids.com P.S. I hope Guido doesn’t get involved in this thread. :-)
Response:
Continue to scroll down to view all of my comments.
I was speaking of interspecies breeding not intergeneric breeding. Within the genus Phalaenopsis there are a half dozen or so grouping often called subtribes which are more closely related to each other than they are to other members of the genus. Some of these breed outside there own subtribe only after complaining loudly and then fertility is reduced in the hybrid.
Sarcanthae is a subtribe which includes phalaenopsis, vanda, sarcochilus, aerides, etc. Groups within a genus such as phalaenopsis are called subgenus. Fellow orchidists, I have a question regarding intergeneric hybrids. As we all know certain genera of orchids can be hybridized. One example that comes to mind is a Vanda and Phalaenopsis combination called Vandanaeposis. This one is a very odd and unexpected hybrid, since the genera seems so different from each other.
Plants are put into the following classifications: Family Subfamily Tribe Subtribe Genus subgenus Species variety Its not very surprising that Aeriedies and Vanda can be hybridized since the plants at least look almost the same…and thus we have Aeridovandas. My question is this, are there no rules as to what can and can’t be hybridized when it comes to orchid genera?
Most species within a genus can breed together, but breeding species and hybrids outside of that genus will all depend on genetics and the chromosome counts. Take for instance, Dendrobium Superbum or Pierardeii which have cane like structures and Dendrobium Chrysotoxum or Aggregatum which have bulbous structures — they are of the same genera, yet I can’t imagine a hybrind among the puny bulbous Aggregatum and tall cane like Superbum (or is there?). In summary, I’d like to know why an intergeneric cross between Vanda and Phalenopsis works while a cross between Cymbidium and Dendrobium is unheard of. -Sadat.
You might be surprised to found out the following facts about orchid classification: Cypripedioideae (paphs, phrags, cyps) have their own subfamily In the Epidendroideae Subfamily/Epidendreae Tribe – Laeliinae (catts, laelias, sophronitis, brassavola, epi’s,) are in the same tribe as the Pleurothallidinae and the Dendrobiums Included in the Vandoideae Subfamily/Cymbidieae tribe are the Cymbidiums, the Oncidiinae (onc, odont, brassia, milt), the Catasetinae (Catasetum, Cycnoches, Mormodes) and the Stanhopeinae So you can see that the Dendrobiums and the Cymbidiums are in different Subfamilies while the Vandas and Phalaenopsis are in the same Subtribe. Matthew Swift Swift’s Orchids 6658 Carnelian St. Rancho Cucamonga, CA 91701 Phone/Fax 909-483-5590 http://www.swiftsorchids.com P.S. I hope Guido doesn’t get involved in this thread. :-)
Response:
WARNING: Big genetics lesson to follow. Is it a general rule of genetics and heredity that intergeneric hybridizations may yield offsprings but most often the offsprings are sterile?
It’s not a general rule but it does happen. In practice hybrid viabilty and fertility covers the range of all, nothing and everything in between. The potential for effective hybridisation and offspring fertility are predominantly controlled by a combination of (a) chromosomal pairing and (b) the gene products. (A) Sexually reproducing species have paired chromosomes (even tetraploids). If two species/genera have differing numbers of chromosomes and are crossed, the offspring should have the sum of half the chromosomes of each species. ie. 2n(1) X 2n(2) parents = n(1)+ n(2) offspring [n(#) = the number of chromosomes in the parent's gametes]. If this chromosomal combination produces gene products at adequate levels to be viable, the offspring will survive as a hybrid. If, however, the combination leads to either overproduction or under production of vital genes this can lead to a reduction in viablity. As a result the offsring may abort very early in development (depending on the severity of the problem), effectively making it impossible to hybridise the two plants. Chromosomes also need to be fairly homologous (have regions of similar DNA) to pair effectively during gamete (pollen and ova) production. This explains why closely related species (ie genetically similar/high homology) can hybridise more easily than distantly related (ie genetically different/low homology). The production of fertile gametes requires balanced separation of the chromosomes. With a n(1)+n(2) plant this is very difficult to achieve (ie most gametes will contain various combinations of (1) and (2) chromosomes). The chance of pairing two chromosomally identical gametes is very slim so fertility is reduced. Al mentioned Cholchine in another post. Cholchine doubles the chromosomal number turning a n(1)+n(2) into a 2n(1)+2n(2) plant. The 2n(1)+2n(2) has two sets of each original parent’s chromosomes which will lead to the plant producing n(1)+n(2) gametes. Thus, the plant can be selfed and is fertile, assuming that the increased levels of gene product are not detrimental (as all of the genes are duplicated this leads to viable tetraploids being bigger). (B) In plants which have the same or differing numbers of chromosomes, the presence, absence or duplication of gene products is critical for viablity. The problems with chromosomal balance that I mentioned above are really due to the absence or overproduction of genes. Even if two species/genera have the same number of chromosomes but have their genes different chromosomes etc (ie non-homologous) the hybrid and viable hybrid’s offspring will be lacking in certain gene products and oversupplied with others to its detriment. For plants which require genes which the crossed plant either does not have or overexpresses, the difference in optimal gene expression can be so great as to abort the embryo. NB. distantly related plants can produce gene products that are so different that fertilisation is hampered. This applies not only to the physical fertilisation process but also to such processes as polloen tube formation. Now granted they are sterile, but does it stop them from being able to be hybridized once again, or does their sterility mean a dead end? I guess what I am asking is, say we have a successful offspring from crossing a cymbidium with a dendrobium but the offspring is sterile. Does its sterility mean it can’t form seed pods by self polination or it can’t be fertilized at ALL naturally?
Generally sterile means it is a dead end but people tend to use the word sterile rather loosely. A cross with very low fertility when selfed may have a slightly higher fertility whe crossed with a parent – see the n(1)=n(2) plant. The chance of producing a gamete with n(1) chromosomes to be crossed with parent (1) is higher than producing two gametes containing the exact combination of (1)+(2) chromosomes. Plus we already know that 2n(1) is a viable combination. Add to the equation the problems with gene product levels and you’ll begin to realise that predicting sterility and calling a apparently sterile plant truly sterile is a difficult call. With orchids, I sometimes wish I had access to a lab and a gene splicer (not to mention the skills of a geneticist).
Well I’m sure as Hell not going to do all of those ligations. As a geneticist I’d love to have access to that technology as well. My apology for the pretty bad genetics lesson. It is actually an easy notion to grasp but unfortunately the background needs a lot more than one post to explain. Andrew
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Is it a general rule of genetics and heredity that intergeneric hybridizations may yield offsprings but most often the offsprings are sterile? Now granted they are sterile, but does it stop them from being able to be hybridized once again, or does their sterility mean a dead end? I guess what I am asking is, say we have a successful offspring from crossing a cymbidium with a dendrobium but the offspring is sterile. Does its sterility mean it can’t form seed pods by self polination or it can’t be fertilized at ALL naturally? With orchids, I sometimes wish I had access to a lab and a gene splicer (not to mention the skills of a geneticist). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is even weirder than simply not being able to cross cymbidiums with dendrobiums. Believe it or not there are many Phal species in the various subtribes which, while they can mate and produce viable offspring, are sufficiently different genetically that these offspring are sterile. In most, however, offspring are only somewhat, not totally, infertile. Paph species have this same problem, I believe. Many of their hybrids are sterile or nearly so and in a short number of generations many breeding lines fail due to sterility. Vandas and Phals are in the same tribe… the Sarcanthes. So they are closely related. As are Aerides etc. Cyms and Dends are more distantly related. Rebecca Northen’s book ‘Home Orchid Growing’ is organized along these ‘tribal’ lines, so like genera are discussed together. (if you wanted a handy reference and a dang good book) K Barrett Fellow orchidists, I have a question regarding intergeneric hybrids. As we all know certain genera of orchids can be hybridized. One example that comes to mind is a Vanda and Phalaenopsis combination called Vandanaeposis. This one is a very odd and unexpected hybrid, since the genera seems so different from each other. Its not very surprising that Aeriedies and Vanda can be hybridized since the plants at least look almost the same…and thus we have Aeridovandas. My question is this, are there no rules as to what can and can’t be hybridized when it comes to orchid genera? Take for instance, Dendrobium Superbum or Pierardeii which have cane like structures and Dendrobium Chrysotoxum or Aggregatum which have bulbous structures — they are of the same genera, yet I can’t imagine a hybrind among the puny bulbous Aggregatum and tall cane like Superbum (or is there?). In summary, I’d like to know why an intergeneric cross between Vanda and Phalenopsis works while a cross between Cymbidium and Dendrobium is unheard of. -Sadat.
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