The Orchid Garden

Does facing your fears help or hinder?

Question:

This is long…. WOW!!  I didn’t expect to get as much feedback as I did.  Thanks everybody.  For those of you who believe in God, believe me when I tell you that he has spoken to me through at least three people this week.  One, of which, is Jackie.  God bless you! Did I mention that my hubby is a drunk, too?  (Alcoholics have to go those meetings!!)  I know the anxiety is the root of his problems.  I have attended ALANON off and on for about 6 years in an attempt to find sanity in my insane life.  ALANON, prayer(much prayer) and Effexor have helped me to get a handle on things. However, what has been revealed to me this week is the fact that I continue to try to "fix" my husband.  I’ve been made aware this week of the fact that I have "control" issues.  My situation lends itself to perpetuating MY sickness, thereby perpetuating or excascerbating (sp?) his. My hubby, Jeff, went through rehab last fall.  He was sober for 4 months and did not take as much as a lorcet for pain or valium for nerves.  His depression sank to its worst (he rarely left the house) and that is when the panic attacks started.  He relapsed at Christmas ((heavy sigh)).  He’s back to where he was before-falling down drunk each night. I know he’s in pain, I know he’s struggling and it hurts me so to see the one I love have his happiness hidden from him.  This is the only way I know how to put it.  Being the caregiver that I am, I am compelled to always say or do something to help him, encourage him, "fix" him.  So it is extremely disappointing and frustrating when my attempts fail.  That’s why I go to ALANON. So I’m torn between detaching and letting him suffer the consequences of his alcoholism and being compassionate enough to step in and help him when I know it his anxiety that prevents him from doing whatever it is that needs to be done. He hasn’t worked for over a year.  He’s applied for disability due to his anxiety.  He has nerve damage in his feet from the diabetes and drinking.  He’s in constant pain which is only aggravated by the fact the medicine can’t work as he is drinking.  Between the drinking and the anxiety, he keeps to himself which means that when I get home in the evenings, he goes outside to piddle around in the yard and in his workshop.  He’s up most of the night and sleeps late in the day.  This presents a problem as we have a 7 year old and I cannot afford daycare.  So, maybe you can understand why I am low on compassion some days? So, to answer the question that I get from many people: Why do I put up with this?  Why don’t I throw him out?  Three little words: I love him.  It wouldn’t be fair to throw him out because he had lupus or cancer, would it?  Reading the posts in this thread have helped to reinforce the understanding that he’s dealing with a mental illness. BTW, I want to share with you where I was on September 11 as I feel that it shed a little light (on me) as to how one with panic or anxiety must feel much of the time.  Jeff was in his last week at rehab and I came to participate in the family week.  On Monday, the counselor gave me the task of writing down 5 things that Jeff did that hurt me and to express how I felt about it.  As much as I had wanted to tell him how I felt in the past, I didn’t want to rub it in while he was getting help!  But the counselor said that this would be the only time we "go backward" during the counseling.  I did NOT want to do this. Jeff and I were waiting in the office for the counselor.  I was clutching the handle to my purse.  My knuckles were white.  My stomach was cramping.  My heart was beating hard.  My throat hurt.  My head hurt.  My jaws hurt from clenching my teeth.  I was stiff as a rod. That’s when the counselor came in and told us about the WTC and the Pentagon. I thought my head would explode!  I cannot describe the fear that engulfed me at that moment.  I wanted to puke.  If that is how one with anxiety feels most of the time, GOOD LORD!!!!!  My heart goes out to you all. Love, Blackbird

Response:

:I don’t like to put him (or anyone) in an uncomfortable situation, but :I feel that he should put aside his fears (if possible) for this one :thing.  Am I being realistic? Dear Blackbird, I know you mean well and want the best for your husband but why do "you" feel "he" *should* put his fears aside for this one situation? The worst thing anyone can do to me is pressure me by making me feel I should do something. in their lives and it causes alot of anxiety because it adds alot of pressure and guilt

Bingo!  This pretty much sums it up for me.  My worse anxiety comes from pressure and guilt.  For years holidays were nightmares for me because my family felt I *should* be able to do all the festivities involved.  For us, it was traveling to grandma’s, (a 2 hour ride) every xmas day.  I did it for years, and every year I suffered for weeks/months before hand.  The *pressure* to show up was horrid.  Finally, 3 years ago, I just stopped.  I refused to go because it just became to hard for me.  Xmas day was spent with chest pains, palpitations, and just plain all around bad feelings.  Now I have xmas at home with just my husband and my kids, and you know what? They love it.  Turns out they hated traveling every xmas as well. Through theraphy with my wonderful pdoc I learned that I don’t *have* to do anything.  The world won’t stop turning if I don’t show up at an event and my friends and family will adjust.   And they have. I  had to be honest and tell them that this was the way it is for me. Your husbanding missing his friends funeral will not take away from the value of their friendship when he was alive. A better way to handle this would be in a very supportive non-pressuring kind of demeanor…. by telling him, "I will be leaving to go to the funeral home at such and such a time, if you care to go you are more than welcome to join me, if you can`t….. I more than understand.

This sounds like perfect advice. Gina

Response:

:I appreciate your input.  I guess I try to hard to "help" him.  I was :brought up by a mother and grandmother who stressed tradition and :manners.  Etiquette was stressed in his home. Please believe me when I say I know you mean well. I can see how much you care for your Husband that you take the time to come here to learn about his disorder and how to deal with it. I wish more spouses and partners were like you ) I understand what you mean about etiquette, I was brought up the same way. Where I grew up there was a family down the road that we were close to, one of their daughters died in the WTC.   They had a memorial service kind of thing for her. I was invited along with my Mother. I debated going……. felt the pressure of etiquette waying heavy on me and decide that for "me" it was better that I not go and I didn`t. I don`t feel guilty and know I did the right thing. If people think less of me, I don`t care. I showed my sympathy in other ways. Jackie ~~*The bad things of life were very transitory.It was the good things , the ribbed sand, the wind blowing over the white capped waves , the sunshine and the stars, that were so tough and durable*~~

Response:

On 06/06/02 Anne was all: Would I judge my own child as harshly as I do myself? NEVER.

So true. For almost anyone I love I would say that’s very true. Excellent point. Jason

Response:

Hi, Blackbird: Jackie has given you an excellent reply. I just wanted to say "Welcome" and that the situation you describe is a very typical one for panic sufferers. It is so nice that you care enough about your husband to ask our advice. xo Anne (SRV fan!)

Also it might be worthwhile to look into this website with useful links: http://panicdisorder.about.com/cs/forfriendsfamily.htm Philip (also SRV fan) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Hi Blackbird, Glad you felt comfortable reaching out here, and hope you continue to! Your post "struck" me in a way that others have addressed, but having been faced w/ several funeral situations in the past 2 years, I (probably egotistically) thought it might help if I shared a bit about my choices, and the reasons for them. Yes, I have PD and agoraphobia; I also am a huge believer in etiquette and courtesy. In addition, I do not like funerals–not because of the crowds, etc. but because I find them horribly depressing and troubling. I saw the body of a man I’d adored who’d worked for my Dad many years ago; it was necessary to walk by it to get into the church. I’d been away at college when Mac had gotten ill w/ cancer; the last time I’d seen him alive, I’d been up on a 20 foot scaffold painting a garage door at my dad’s warehouse. I was terrified (I hate heights), and I told Mac I couldn’t walk out on the board. Mac gruffly replied, "Goddam it, Charla, I’m here and your father would kill me if I let anything happen to you, so get your ass out there!" (Let me clearly state Mac was a jewel, and this was not abusive; it gave me the courage to do something I didn’t think I could:). When Mac died, he was emaciated. I’d heard this, and I have always avoided "visitations"–I know they are comforting for some folks, but they have the opposite effect on me; I prefer to remember people alive (just MHO). When I saw his body, so, so skinny, and *not* looking like the Mac I’d known, and realized I would have to walk by it, I began shaking. I did it; got through the funeral, etc. but it breaks my heart that I have to carry that image of Mac now, when I’d've been so much better off to remember him at the bottom of that stupid scaffold. Last summer, I lost a dear, dear friend, Marcene, who used to be my dad’s office manager, but was so much more to me (this was 2 weeks after my dad’s wife died, and less than a year & 1/2 after my dad died). In fact, the last time I talked to her was the night before Jane died; and she left the message on my machine that Jane had died (I still cannot erase that message; because it’s all I have of her voice). When I heard she had been diagnosed w/ terminal cancer, I truly couldn’t handle it. I immediately tried to think of something I could do to let her know, one last time, how much I loved her—ended up going to a flower shop & ordering an orchid (Marce was a lady, and an extraordinary one—no simple rose for her:), and dictating my message to her to the kind woman who helped me get the flower sent. I also called once a day, to check in with her family & ask them to tell her I loved her. I agonized over the funeral; I knew it would be open-casket, and I couldn’t bear that, but I love her family, and I didn’t want to be hurtful to them. Marcene knew how I felt about "viewings", and she gave me the answer in her amazing, precious way—I was at the memorial for Jane, my Dad’s wife, and suddenly I saw a small woman in a navy suit standing back from my table, patiently waiting to speak to me. It was Jan, Marcene’s daughter. As soon as I could politely excuse myself, I went to her; she took me to a quiet spot and pulled something wrapped in tissue from her purse, and said, "Mom wanted me to come here now, and give this to you so you would never forget her." I unwrapped the tissue, and there was a beautiful crystal turtle (Marce collected turtles, and I used to always give her turtles). To describe my feelings at that moment is impossible, but I can tell you I went to the house after the funeral service, and, more importantly, the turtle sits in a special place in my living room, on a shelf that is a memorial of sorts to my mother and others I’ve loved. Now I’m facing the imminent death of another dear friend, also to cancer. I’ve visited him in the hospital, and his wife called last night to tell me they’d soon be ready to have me come to their house and visit for a day. My driving has been *very* shaky lately, but I guarantee I’ll face that fear and go when she calls and says it’s time, because I believe with all my heart, that it’s what you give and express to a person in life that matters. You say your husband was a friend to this man; that, to me, is the highest form of respect and love. It’s tough when we face these dilemmas of etiquette, but please give yourself credit for loving your husband enough to come here, instead of passing judgment. He’s fortunate to have you… Best, Charla*) & The Boys ^..^< —  Who can believe that there is no soul behind those luminous eyes! ^..^<                       ~Theophile Gauthier

Response:

What I meant to say in my previous post was that etiquette was NOT stressed in his home as it was in mine.

Etiquette, tradition and manners are not universally the same. Within my family a viewing or an open casket are not the rituals we use when dealing with the passing of family or friends, and if I were faced with the choice of attending any such service it would be hard for me even without the anxiety. I don’t think it shows a lack of manners or etiquette not to attend, maybe your husband can find another way to remember your neighbour? Vashti

Response:

What I meant to say in my previous post was that etiquette was NOT stressed in his home as it was in mine. Blackbird

Response:

On 06/06/02 Anne was all:

LOL! Love your quote line. And in the same spirit — Jason was like: I seem to have this great talent at beating myself to a pulp over shortcomings (real or imagined) and I can literally go days and weeks not catching myself doing it. … Eventually I lash out, become silent and finally isolate myself.

You are certainly not alone in this. And you’re right, when we hate ourselves, we tend to isolate ourselves from the very relationships and activities and even *thoughts* that could pull us out of our funks. I’m glad you brought this up today, because for a long time it hasn’t occurred to me that I am terribly hard on myself sometimes. Many of us are. Would I judge my own child as harshly as I do myself? NEVER. xxoo Anne

Response:

Jackie, I appreciate your input.  I guess I try to hard to "help" him.  I was brought up by a mother and grandmother who stressed tradition and manners.  Etiquette was stressed in his home. As it is, we’ve resolved to him staying home.  I will go alone.   Thanks again. Blackbird

Response:

…. various other shortcomings I am quick to remind myself of much the same way some cruel person would whip some poor animal.

Jason, I just wanted to isolate the above phrase from your reply to Blackbird, because I think we all do this to some extent, and it relates back to the "accepting yourself" thread. Thanks for saying it so well. xo Anne

Response:

On 06/06/02 Anne was all: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …. various other shortcomings I am quick to remind myself of much the same way some cruel person would whip some poor animal. Jason, I just wanted to isolate the above phrase from your reply to Blackbird, because I think we all do this to some extent, and it relates back to the "accepting yourself" thread. Thanks for saying it so well. xo Anne

Thanks Anne. I think without doubt this has been one of my biggest problems. I think from it so much of my anxiety and depression stems. I seem to have this great talent at beating myself to a pulp over shortcomings (real or imagined) and I can literally go days and weeks not catching myself doing it. I think that’s when I’m my sickest. Eventually I lash out, become silent and finally isolate myself. It’s a tough hole to crawl out of. Of course this insight is really easy for me to see right now, what being out of the hole somewhat at present. I also think it’s very important for loved ones to understand how completely impossible it can be to come out of this or hell, even see it when you’re in the middle of it and often just being present and doing nothing but waiting to do something is all they can help with. In other words , for friends and family, just being there sometimes can be everything. I wish I had an answer. Looking at it from their perspective it seems almost as hard as asking me to just snap out of it. Take care, Jason

Response:

Howdy and welcome Blackbird, Since you said any input would be appreciated I’ll try to put in something useful. I was faced with a similar situation last year. My best friend died very unexpectedly which sent me and all of our mutual friends and his family into a frenzy to get the word out and organize everything. At that time I had barely touched on the fact that I suffered from panic/anxiety and refused to go to the reception/viewing whatever as it seemed A a bit morbid to me and B a bit closed in with lotsa people, a situation at that time I avoided at all costs and hardly understood why. (I still tend to avoid such at all costs just less frequently when I am able and now I have some understanding as to why) I attributed it to a flaw in character and various other shortcomings I am quick to remind myself of much the same way some cruel person would whip some poor animal. Anyway, the mere implication that I was being less than a good friend (and there were some) I found to make the discomfort I was already inflicting on myself multiply. In time I realized that my friend would most assuredly have done the same were the situation reversed as his poor soul was trapped in a body that had anxiety and agoraphobia I can only have nightmares about. He hadn’t left his house in months at the time of his death, which I’m sure played no small part. Anyway, I don’t have an answer to your question, only my experience which was to deal with it as best I could with my limited knowledge of my situation at the time. I find the old "confront your fears" head on version of therapy to be a very slow and tedious process, at least from what I am able (or willing) to do. Small victories (however small) have been something to hold onto and use to remind myself of progress, to me a funeral or viewing would be a huge victory and (some days) impossible. I hope that some of this rambling makes sense. Your post just struck a note with me and I hope my reply didn’t serve to confuse more. Best wishes to you and your husband. Jason "It’s like they chopped off your arms and legs, dipped you in plastic, then screwed you all back together again and stuck you on a pedestal. It’s really quite exquisite." – Kramer

Response:

Hi Blackbird, I also say "WELCOME!" and ditto to everything that Jackie and Anne said.  It is really caring and admirable that you come here to learn and ask for our advice on this one.  It’s such a good idea I might suggest to my boyfriend that he come here to learn about anxiety when he is having trouble understanding me. In answer to your question: If someone who is close to me says I "should" do something when I have already told them that it makes me anxious, I have a number of responses: 1.  I feel like they’re not really listening when I say "that makes me very anxious" OR I feel that they don’t understand what it is like to experience that kind of anxiety, and they’re not really trying to understand (even if that’s not the case) 2.  The occurrence of 1 makes me feel more anxious. 3.  Feeling that I am failing to meet an obligation or that I am unable to do something that I "should" makes me feel sad, possibly even depressed.  I feel bad enough about my anxiety as it is without feeling like a failure as well. I totally agree with what Jackie suggested.  If he goes to the funeral home it HAS to come from him – from his own desire to go and his own determination to overcome his anxiety about it.   When you put pressure on him as you have described, it is likely that you are putting him in a no-win situation.  Why? – He will have a lot more anxiety to overcome in order to go to the funeral home.   – If he goes to the funeral home it will be VERY difficult for him, but he won’t feel as positive about the achievement because he will feel that it was something he was forced to do, not something that he chose to do.  Choosing to do something is much more powerful than having no choice. In this situation he will feel that he went out of fear of letting people down and possibly upsetting you.  He will feel much better about himself if he has overcome his own anxiety, compared to other people overwhelming him. – If he does not go he will feel anxiety over not going, disappointing you and possibly disappointing the family of his departed friend, and possibly the friend as well (if he believes in spirits ect.).  This will not help his self esteem or his progress towards overcoming his anxiety. I totally agree that you shouldn’t pressure him at all.  Be understanding of what he is experiencing.  Support him in whatever he decides to do.  Try not to be upset with him if he is unable to go.  I am sure that whatever he does will be the best that he can do, and you can’t ask more than that.  Perhaps even give him the option to drive to the funeral home and park in the street outside, look at the building, think about his friend and drive home again. I know it can be difficult to understand for people who don’t experience this kind of anxiety.  Don’t expect it to be rational – it’s usually not. It seems to be important to YOU that HE goes to the funeral home, but on the grand scale of life it’s really not THAT important.  There is more than one way to say goodbye to a loved one.  This is between your hubby and the memory of his friend.  Let him say goodbye in whatever way is right for him. The best thing you can do for him is to hold him and tell him that you love him, and that you will love him no matter what he decides to do.   I wish you and you husband many happy years together, –  Cath. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a lurker here as my hubby has anxiety/panic/depression.   I want to know if your spouse/significant other asks you to do something you don’t want to do, but you know you should, do you do it anyway?  Does it make things worse for you?  Is facing your fears by doing things you don’t like/are afraid of a step toward healing? Here’s the situation:  Our neighbor passed away.  My husband was acquainted with him more than I and thought highly of him.  Many family members of this man live in our neighborhood.  I feel we should go to either the funeral home for visitation or to the funeral. I know my husband really can’t handle funerals so I suggested we go to the funeral home.  I told him we’d only be there a few minutes (30 minutes MAX).  He doesn’t want to but agreed that the funeral home would be better than the funeral itself. I don’t like to put him (or anyone) in an uncomfortable situation, but I feel that he should put aside his fears (if possible) for this one thing.  Am I being realistic? Any input would be appreciated. Thanks, Blackbird

Response:

Hi Blackbird, This one is a really tough call.  If it were something simple like the grocery store or mall I’d say that slowly facing the fear diminishes the fear in that one gains positive experiences. A funeral or wake is a whole other ballpark. For me going to either doesn’t reduce my fear of funeral homes, it hasn’t made the fear worse either.  But I can say that, sheesh, I don’t want to scare you, after I went to the last funeral of a dear friend I had a horrible time getting the image out of my mind. I can only speak from my experience. Jess "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgement that something else is more important than fear." -Ambrose Redmoon

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a lurker here as my hubby has anxiety/panic/depression. I want to know if your spouse/significant other asks you to do something you don’t want to do, but you know you should, do you do it anyway?  Does it make things worse for you?  Is facing your fears by doing things you don’t like/are afraid of a step toward healing? Here’s the situation:  Our neighbor passed away.  My husband was acquainted with him more than I and thought highly of him.  Many family members of this man live in our neighborhood.  I feel we should go to either the funeral home for visitation or to the funeral. I know my husband really can’t handle funerals so I suggested we go to the funeral home.  I told him we’d only be there a few minutes (30 minutes MAX).  He doesn’t want to but agreed that the funeral home would be better than the funeral itself. I don’t like to put him (or anyone) in an uncomfortable situation, but I feel that he should put aside his fears (if possible) for this one thing.  Am I being realistic? Any input would be appreciated. Thanks, Blackbird

The previous post was quite good, I believe. However, I just want to add that I indeed dislike funerals because of my beliefs.  They are quite alienating and when my grandmother died last year, I found my anxiety at a high level during the funeral.  As an atheist, I don’t believe in the religious aspect of the funeral.  And as for the way the funeral was, I really don’t think my grandmother would’ve tolerated people gathering around all gloomy in some strange place (funeral home) to be all upset.  Although, I never did express it, I really wanted to drag my entire family out of there and go to her house to watch videos and talk about our good memories of her and how she was like a second mother to me. Anyway, a bit off track, but in my experience, funerals CAN be a tough time for anyone – not just people with anxiety/panic conditions. They can be quite alienating. I wouldn’t force him to go. I bet that he will probably WANT to go at some point, but will not want the added pressure of having to be there for x minutes.

Response:

Hi, Blackbird: Jackie has given you an excellent reply. I just wanted to say "Welcome" and that the situation you describe is a very typical one for panic sufferers. It is so nice that you care enough about your husband to ask our advice. xo Anne (SRV fan!)

Response:

:I don’t like to put him (or anyone) in an uncomfortable situation, but :I feel that he should put aside his fears (if possible) for this one :thing.  Am I being realistic? Dear Blackbird, I know you mean well and want the best for your husband but why do "you" feel "he" *should* put his fears aside for this one situation? The worst thing anyone can do to me is pressure me by making me feel I should do something. People with anxiety disorders get really hung up on the shoulds in their lives and it causes alot of anxiety because it adds alot of pressure and guilt. A better way to handle this would be in a very supportive non-pressuring kind of demeanor…. by telling him, "I will be leaving to go to the funeral home at such and such a time, if you care to go you are more than welcome to join me, if you can`t….. I more than understand. If you decide to join me I assure you that we will leave if you start to feel too anxious. If it makes you feel more comfortable we can be the first ones there when the funeral home opens so there is less people". By giving your Husband "outs", assuring him he can leave at any time and by making it less stressful by getting there first so there are less people he might just be willing to try it. Take care Jackie ~~*The bad things of life were very transitory.It was the good things , the ribbed sand, the wind blowing over the white capped waves , the sunshine and the stars, that were so tough and durable*~~

Response:

I’m a lurker here as my hubby has anxiety/panic/depression.   I want to know if your spouse/significant other asks you to do something you don’t want to do, but you know you should, do you do it anyway?  Does it make things worse for you?  Is facing your fears by doing things you don’t like/are afraid of a step toward healing? Here’s the situation:  Our neighbor passed away.  My husband was acquainted with him more than I and thought highly of him.  Many family members of this man live in our neighborhood.  I feel we should go to either the funeral home for visitation or to the funeral. I know my husband really can’t handle funerals so I suggested we go to the funeral home.  I told him we’d only be there a few minutes (30 minutes MAX).  He doesn’t want to but agreed that the funeral home would be better than the funeral itself. I don’t like to put him (or anyone) in an uncomfortable situation, but I feel that he should put aside his fears (if possible) for this one thing.  Am I being realistic? Any input would be appreciated. Thanks, Blackbird

Response:

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