Filed under: Orchid Flower
Question:
Hi there everyone Really need your help now. My husband bought me these dens for our anniversary last week. They are in full bloom. There were two buds at the very tip of each stem that now have turned yellow and the buds have fallen off . I’m killing this gorgeous plant and could really use some help. Thank you Jackie
Response:
Hi, Jackie, Although I am not an expert with dendrobriums, I have finally managed to get them to return to bloom the subsequent year without killing them. I would say that the yellowing is caused by overwatering them. Once they are in bloom, decrease the watering — once or twice a week is ample. Place in the kitchen sink when in bloom and let the water to run through them and then turn off the water and let drain. Place them in a sunny window. But remember, dendrobriums are a little different than other orchids. They will drop leaves, and stalks without leaves are where next year’s blooms will appear. . . . Pam Everything Orchid Management System http://www.pe.net/~profpam/page3.html ——- – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi there everyone Really need your help now. My husband bought me these dens for our anniversary last week. They are in full bloom. There were two buds at the very tip of each stem that now have turned yellow and the buds have fallen off . I’m killing this gorgeous plant and could really use some help. Thank you Jackie
Response:
You aren’t killing the plant, Jackie. What is going on is fairly common. Dens seem to resent being moved to a new locale when they are in bud (at least in my experience). they sometimes react with what is called "bud blast". The buds turn yellow and fall off. Enjoy the ones that are open and don’t feel bad. Hope this helped. Hi there everyone Really need your help now. My husband bought me these dens for our anniversary last week. They are in full bloom. There were two buds at the very tip of each stem that now have turned yellow and the buds have fallen off . I’m killing this gorgeous plant and could really use some help. Thank you Jackie
–Alynne http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Jungle/2947
Response:
After growing dozens of den species what I’ve learned to do is a) watch the water – once a week is plenty and b) give the suckers enough light. They like a LOT of light as in 4 hours of morning sun or 3000 foot candles under lights. Other than that they are actually pretty tough plants and few pests seem to like to munch on them but they benedit from being in a light breeze from a small fan at all times. RJ
Response:
After growing dozens of den species what I’ve learned to do is a) watch the water – once a week is plenty and b) give the suckers enough light. They like a LOT of light as in 4 hours of morning sun or 3000 foot candles under lights. Other than that they are actually pretty tough plants and few pests seem to like to munch on them but they benedit from being in a light breeze from a small fan at all times. RJ
Another good thing to remember is that if these plants were from an indoor store they’ve been out of the bright light for some time. Sometimes it’s easier on the plant to be slowly moved into the light than to get it all at once 3-4 inches a week usually works well for me. -Ally
Response:
Will *all* dendrobriums drop their leaves? I’ve had one for 6 mo., and its been out of bloom for at leat 5 of those. Its doing great. In fact, its sent off another shoot thats 6-8 inches tall. I keep in my ‘grow room’ and pamper the heck out of it. Should I let it go into dormancy…or keep going with what appears to be working? DKAR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Jackie, Although I am not an expert with dendrobriums, I have finally managed to get them to return to bloom the subsequent year without killing them. I would say that the yellowing is caused by overwatering them. Once they are in bloom, decrease the watering — once or twice a week is ample. Place in the kitchen sink when in bloom and let the water to run through them and then turn off the water and let drain. Place them in a sunny window. But remember, dendrobriums are a little different than other orchids. They will drop leaves, and stalks without leaves are where next year’s blooms will appear. . . . Pam Everything Orchid Management System http://www.pe.net/~profpam/page3.html ——- Hi there everyone Really need your help now. My husband bought me these dens for our anniversary last week. They are in full bloom. There were two buds at the very tip of each stem that now have turned yellow and the buds have fallen off . I’m killing this gorgeous plant and could really use some help. Thank you Jackie
Response:
Not all will necessarily lose their leaves, but most. If it does, don’t cut off the canes unless they get soft or dessicated, because you’ll probably get flower spikes on the old canes.
Will *all* dendrobriums drop their leaves? I’ve had one for 6 mo., and its been out of bloom for at leat 5 of those. Its doing great. In fact, its sent off another shoot thats 6-8 inches tall. I keep in my ‘grow room’ and pamper the heck out of it. Should I let it go into dormancy…or keep going with what appears to be working? DKAR
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Jackie, Although I am not an expert with dendrobriums, I have finally managed to get them to return to bloom the subsequent year without killing them. I would say that the yellowing is caused by overwatering them. Once they are in bloom, decrease the watering — once or twice a week is ample. Place in the kitchen sink when in bloom and let the water to run through them and then turn off the water and let drain. Place them in a sunny window. But remember, dendrobriums are a little different than other orchids. They will drop leaves, and stalks without leaves are where next year’s blooms will appear. . . . Pam Everything Orchid Management System http://www.pe.net/~profpam/page3.html ——- Hi there everyone Really need your help now. My husband bought me these dens for our anniversary last week. They are in full bloom. There were two buds at the very tip of each stem that now have turned yellow and the buds have fallen off . I’m killing this gorgeous plant and could really use some help. Thank you Jackie
Response:
Question:
Rob First off I liked your rules to live by 
Now about cover crops, most of the ones mentioned are avaible from Gardens Alive, a mail order co. Their number is 812-537-8650 or FAX 812-537-5108 address is 5100 Schenley Place, Lawrenceburg, IN 47025. Good Luck! Chrissie Devinney
Response:
austrian field peas, some clovers, and my fave, buckwheat. if you use ryegrass, make very, very sure to use *annual* and not perennial. vetch is pretty and will work well, though i’ve used the hairy type and not crown. i could give you a great place here; but i bet it won’t be of much help. try looking under farm supplies in the outer areas (my guess is that chicago proper doesn’t have many of these places…. ).
If you use rye, try winter rye rather than annual or perennial rye. The annual and perennial rye looks like grass seed. The winter rye seed is larger, more like wheat. If you get it started in the fall, the rye will overwinter and hold the soil together during the spring rains, then it will grow. Before it grows too much you till it in. Winter rye seems to have its growing point above ground in the spring so you can kill it by mowing close. The only things the rye or oat cover crops do is hold the soil together during the spring rains and add organic material to the soil. It doesn’t add any significant nitrogen or other nutrients. I’ve had annual rye overwinter in Massachusetts during a relatively mild winter, and the annual rye is significantly harder to get rid of than the winter rye. The field peas, clovers and hairy vetch add nitrogen. I’ve not used the field peas, but the hairy vetch will overwinter and you have to till it in in the spring. There are several different kinds of clover, annual and perennial. In Massachusetts, the extension advises a mixture of winter rye and hairy vetch. The winter rye provides cover for the vetch while it grows in the spring. The disadvantage in this mixture is to get any significant nitrogen from it you have to wait until mid to late may to till it in. By that time the rye is pretty tall, and it’s usually kind of late to be preparing seedbeds, since many things are already supposed to be in the ground by then. I haven’t tried crown vetch, but I suspect that it’s a really tenacious plant and it’s probably not a good idea to put it in your garden since it might be hard to get rid of. It’s used on road cuts and things like that because it’s so hardy and smothers everything else. I usually use buckwheat only in fallow fields during the summer. It is easily killed by frost, but doesn’t leave enough root structure over the winter to protect the soil in the spring. It’s great to use to keep an area clear that you are planning to plant later in the year, and it’s an attractive plant and if you keep bees, buckwheat honey is good, although it tastes a bit strong and not everyone likes it.
Response:
Thanks!
Well that didn’t work for some reason.. Stupid editor… Ok, here is the question again. I need to put in some cover crops on my flower beds (well, what will be flower beds next year). I recall that crown vetch was (when I was much smaller) available for such a purpose. It had the advantage of fixing nitrogen as well as being a good source of organic material. Does anybody know where to get that in the Chicago area? I was also considering other options, including rye or oat grass, but I have never tried those. My only requirement is that things die hard during the winter, so I can turn them under in the spring and not have to worry about them taking over the garden next year. Any suggestions and/or sources will be greatly appreciated. Rob Rob’s rules to live by: | Send me seeds! (1) There is always room for one more orchid. | (2) There is always room for two more orchids. | (3) There is no rule 3. | Will Flask for Food (3a) When one has insufficient credit to buy | more orchids, obtain more credit. |
Response:
Thanks! Rob Rob’s rules to live by: | Send me seeds! (1) There is always room for one more orchid. | (2) There is always room for two more orchids. | (3) There is no rule 3. | Will Flask for Food (3a) When one has insufficient credit to buy | more orchids, obtain more credit. |
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks! Well that didn’t work for some reason.. Stupid editor… Ok, here is the question again. I need to put in some cover crops on my flower beds (well, what will be flower beds next year). I recall that crown vetch was (when I was much smaller) available for such a purpose. It had the advantage of fixing nitrogen as well as being a good source of organic material. Does anybody know where to get that in the Chicago area? I was also considering other options, including rye or oat grass, but I have never tried those. My only requirement is that things die hard during the winter, so I can turn them under in the spring and not have to worry about them taking over the garden next year. Any suggestions and/or sources will be greatly appreciated.
austrian field peas, some clovers, and my fave, buckwheat. if you use ryegrass, make very, very sure to use *annual* and not perennial. vetch is pretty and will work well, though i’ve used the hairy type and not crown. i could give you a great place here; but i bet it won’t be of much help. try looking under farm supplies in the outer areas (my guess is that chicago proper doesn’t have many of these places…. ). — so your life sucks? well, 99% of life is what you make it so, if your life sucks you must suck – suicidal tendencies sonny hays-eberts
Response:
I’m told to cut the cover crop when 50% of it is in flower. Let the green material dry out for a week or two before turning into the soil. From the lands of Luther Burbank – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rye can be hell to chop in and can take weeks to break down, even with the help of a tiller. Buckwheat, OTOH, practically melts in like butter. Grows fast — six weeks between seeding and turning in. Has nice, big, broad leaves, excellent for shading out weeds. I’m just got some buckwheat and oat seed from superseeds.com. Lots of other cover crops there too. John
Response:
With any of the cover crops (clover, buckwheat, rye, etc.), is there much danger of the seeds spreading to other areas of the garden? Is it necessary to keep the cover crop cut (like grass), or can I pretty much just plant it then ignore the bed until I’m ready to till it in? Or do I need to follow the cover crop’s schedule about when to till it in? ?? Thanks for all the advice so far. I think I forgot to mention, I’m in zone 7B (NC). Jennifer
Not much danger of spreading if you turn it under before it seeds. The ones you mention serve different purposes. Buch wheat for example is a summer cover crop, rye is a winter crop and clovers are sort of multipurpose. If you need the plot for summer plantings of annuals like veggies , you will find the buckwheat is competition,
Response:
Cover crops will generally stay contained if you do two simple things: The first is to seed carefully, so you don’t end up planting them where you don’t want them. The second is to turn them under after you enjoy the flowers for a few days, but before they develop seeds. Let the bees have them for a few days to a week, but then get them turned under. I don’t mow my cover crops when they are growing. I want them to develop maximum "green matter" to turn under at a later time, and I want them to choke out any weeds that may be trying to develop. Please note that some of these crops are easier than others to turn under by hand. It depends on how densely the plant grows. Buckwheat is supposed to be one of the easier ones to turn under which is why I use it. Clover is supposed to be more difficult to turn, but is also supposed to add more nutrients to the soil. Annual rye is supposed to be fairly easy, especially after it winter kills. So there are choices to be made. Although buckwheat is one of the easy ones, it still takes a few stabs with the shovel to get it turned over properly. The first two or three are to break up the hollow stems and root system. The last stab is for the final flip, and is by far the most satisfying. :) Good luck! Wacko!
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – With any of the cover crops (clover, buckwheat, rye, etc.), is there much danger of the seeds spreading to other areas of the garden? Is it necessary to keep the cover crop cut (like grass), or can I pretty much just plant it then ignore the bed until I’m ready to till it in? Or do I need to follow the cover crop’s schedule about when to till it in? ?? Thanks for all the advice so far. I think I forgot to mention, I’m in zone 7B (NC). Jennifer
Response:
Rye can be hell to chop in and can take weeks to break down, even with the help of a tiller. Buckwheat, OTOH, practically melts in like butter. Grows fast — six weeks between seeding and turning in. Has nice, big, broad leaves, excellent for shading out weeds.
I’m just got some buckwheat and oat seed from superseeds.com. Lots of other cover crops there too. John
Response:
In my old garden from which I moved, had clay but had ammended a lot with leaves and grass clippings and then several late falls planted, if I remember right, winter rye and then dug it under after it reached about 10 inches high before it had any seeds. It seemed to help the soil quite a lot. Leona. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – With any of the cover crops (clover, buckwheat, rye, etc.), is there much danger of the seeds spreading to other areas of the garden? Is it necessary to keep the cover crop cut (like grass), or can I pretty much just plant it then ignore the bed until I’m ready to till it in? Or do I need to follow the cover crop’s schedule about when to till it in? ?? Thanks for all the advice so far. I think I forgot to mention, I’m in zone 7B (NC). Jennifer Not much danger of spreading if you turn it under before it seeds. The ones you mention serve different purposes. Buch wheat for example is a summer cover crop, rye is a winter crop and clovers are sort of multipurpose. If you need the plot for summer plantings of annuals like veggies , you will find the buckwheat is competition,
– Non Commercial site http://www.geocities.com/tvksi/index.htm
Response:
After my spring vegetables finish this year, I’m considering trying something new and planting a cover crop in the bed. Anyone have any feedback on whether it is worth the effort and if it improves later performance of the bed? I’m considering either white dutch clover or annual rye. Jennifer
I had raised beds 18" high, I mixed clover and alfalfa for a cover crop. It worked just great and after the second year I had what can only be described as GORGEOUS LOAM. Well worth the effort in my opinion.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hello jennifer (and all). in a bed i do not know if a cover crop is helpful or no, but in a bigger garden it certainly seems to be. it would be difficult/impossible for me to make a scientific argument about it because i would have to have a "control" garden that i did NOT put a cover crop on **grins**, but it does seem to make a difference and logically you might assume that having more nitrogen rich grass clippings and roots in the soil would be a good thing. in a bigger garden, one that you use a tiller on, it’s very easy to run the tiller over the area you cover cropped (look mom a new word) and dig it into the soil. but in a "bed", like say a raised bed, i’d think it would be WAY too much trouble. much easier to just throw some composted manure out of the bag on most beds and nearly impossible to get the tiller into it without making a huge mess. rye is a good choice, this year i’ll be tilling in clover the clover planted in autumn but i think i’ll just use rye most of the time because the clover didn’t really do well here in va/6b for some reason, i think it needed more water. there are patches out in the garden where the clover never did take off that are still brown, whereas whenever there is rye out there it’s big and tall by now. hope that helps. btw, another good reason to plant a cover crop like rye is that it’s real perty in the spring, nice and green Rye can be hell to chop in and can take weeks to break down, even with the help of a tiller. Buckwheat, OTOH, practically melts in like butter. Grows fast — six weeks between seeding and turning in. Has nice, big, broad leaves, excellent for shading out weeds. After my spring vegetables finish this year, I’m considering trying something new and planting a cover crop in the bed. Anyone have any feedback on whether it is worth the effort and if it improves later performance of the bed? I’m considering either white dutch clover or annual rye. Jennifer
I agree that for a summer cover buckwheat is about your best bet. Clover and rye are both good fall planted covers for over wintering. Cover crops will dramatically change your soil and are worth the effort tenfold. Lucy Boulder Belt Organics http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Response:
With any of the cover crops (clover, buckwheat, rye, etc.), is there much danger of the seeds spreading to other areas of the garden? Is it necessary to keep the cover crop cut (like grass), or can I pretty much just plant it then ignore the bed until I’m ready to till it in? Or do I need to follow the cover crop’s schedule about when to till it in? ?? Thanks for all the advice so far. I think I forgot to mention, I’m in zone 7B (NC). Jennifer
I never let mine go to seed. Whacked it down in early spring, before it had a chance to go to seed, and then turned it under.
Response:
With any of the cover crops (clover, buckwheat, rye, etc.), is there much danger of the seeds spreading to other areas of the garden? Is it necessary to keep the cover crop cut (like grass), or can I pretty much just plant it then ignore the bed until I’m ready to till it in? Or do I need to follow the cover crop’s schedule about when to till it in? ?? Thanks for all the advice so far. I think I forgot to mention, I’m in zone 7B (NC). Jennifer
Response:
After my spring vegetables finish this year, I’m considering trying something new and planting a cover crop in the bed. Anyone have any feedback on whether it is worth the effort and if it improves later performance of the bed? I’m considering either white dutch clover or annual rye.
Here is some information on cover crops. http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/CoopExt/4DMG/Soil/plntfall.htm sed5555
Response:
Slightly OT, but for a longer term reclamation project, crimson clover is great. It grows tall, produces beaucoup ‘organic matter’, deep roots, thick cover to prevent weeds, and puts on a magnificent display to boot (http://progressivefarmer.com/ruralsportsman/wildplants/images/0200ccl… pg). It reseeds readily, which is the main issue with using it as a traditional cover crop, although it can be mowed to prevent seedset. Birds love the seeds, and the flowers attract beneficial bugs (great as living mulch in an orchard). I overseeded an area used by the prior owners to park their rv and monster truck. It was mostly packed dirt, no grass and only a few sickly weeds attempting to survive. Other than mowing annually in the dead of winter, I have done no maintenance, watering etc and two years later that is the greenest, most earthworm filled area of my property. Since I have put in a new area of crimson clover for the floral display, this year I am going to keep the first area mowed to prevent reseeding and try to establish native sages which I am starting in the greenhouse.
Response:
After my spring vegetables finish this year, I’m considering trying something new and planting a cover crop in the bed. Anyone have any feedback on whether it is worth the effort and if it improves later performance of the bed? I’m considering either white dutch clover or annual rye.
Beans (nitrogen fixing legumes) or buckwheat.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hello jennifer (and all). in a bed i do not know if a cover crop is helpful or no, but in a bigger garden it certainly seems to be. it would be difficult/impossible for me to make a scientific argument about it because i would have to have a "control" garden that i did NOT put a cover crop on **grins**, but it does seem to make a difference and logically you might assume that having more nitrogen rich grass clippings and roots in the soil would be a good thing. in a bigger garden, one that you use a tiller on, it’s very easy to run the tiller over the area you cover cropped (look mom a new word) and dig it into the soil. but in a "bed", like say a raised bed, i’d think it would be WAY too much trouble. much easier to just throw some composted manure out of the bag on most beds and nearly impossible to get the tiller into it without making a huge mess. rye is a good choice, this year i’ll be tilling in clover the clover planted in autumn but i think i’ll just use rye most of the time because the clover didn’t really do well here in va/6b for some reason, i think it needed more water. there are patches out in the garden where the clover never did take off that are still brown, whereas whenever there is rye out there it’s big and tall by now. hope that helps. btw, another good reason to plant a cover crop like rye is that it’s real perty in the spring, nice and green After my spring vegetables finish this year, I’m considering trying something new and planting a cover crop in the bed. Anyone have any feedback on whether it is worth the effort and if it improves later performance of the bed? I’m considering either white dutch clover or annual rye. Jennifer
After using Vetch last year (reported to provide the most nitrogen for the amount used) I had problems with good coverage so I went with clover this year. I think I’m going to plant right into the clover and use it as a living mulch.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hello jennifer (and all). in a bed i do not know if a cover crop is helpful or no, but in a bigger garden it certainly seems to be. it would be difficult/impossible for me to make a scientific argument about it because i would have to have a "control" garden that i did NOT put a cover crop on **grins**, but it does seem to make a difference and logically you might assume that having more nitrogen rich grass clippings and roots in the soil would be a good thing. in a bigger garden, one that you use a tiller on, it’s very easy to run the tiller over the area you cover cropped (look mom a new word) and dig it into the soil. but in a "bed", like say a raised bed, i’d think it would be WAY too much trouble. much easier to just throw some composted manure out of the bag on most beds and nearly impossible to get the tiller into it without making a huge mess. rye is a good choice, this year i’ll be tilling in clover the clover planted in autumn but i think i’ll just use rye most of the time because the clover didn’t really do well here in va/6b for some reason, i think it needed more water. there are patches out in the garden where the clover never did take off that are still brown, whereas whenever there is rye out there it’s big and tall by now. hope that helps. btw, another good reason to plant a cover crop like rye is that it’s real perty in the spring, nice and green
Rye can be hell to chop in and can take weeks to break down, even with the help of a tiller. Buckwheat, OTOH, practically melts in like butter. Grows fast — six weeks between seeding and turning in. Has nice, big, broad leaves, excellent for shading out weeds. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After my spring vegetables finish this year, I’m considering trying something new and planting a cover crop in the bed. Anyone have any feedback on whether it is worth the effort and if it improves later performance of the bed? I’m considering either white dutch clover or annual rye. Jennifer
Response:
After my spring vegetables finish this year, I’m considering trying something new and planting a cover crop in the bed. Anyone have any feedback on whether it is worth the effort and if it improves later performance of the bed? I’m considering either white dutch clover or annual rye. Jennifer
Response:
hello jennifer (and all). in a bed i do not know if a cover crop is helpful or no, but in a bigger garden it certainly seems to be. it would be difficult/impossible for me to make a scientific argument about it because i would have to have a "control" garden that i did NOT put a cover crop on **grins**, but it does seem to make a difference and logically you might assume that having more nitrogen rich grass clippings and roots in the soil would be a good thing. in a bigger garden, one that you use a tiller on, it’s very easy to run the tiller over the area you cover cropped (look mom a new word) and dig it into the soil. but in a "bed", like say a raised bed, i’d think it would be WAY too much trouble. much easier to just throw some composted manure out of the bag on most beds and nearly impossible to get the tiller into it without making a huge mess. rye is a good choice, this year i’ll be tilling in clover the clover planted in autumn but i think i’ll just use rye most of the time because the clover didn’t really do well here in va/6b for some reason, i think it needed more water. there are patches out in the garden where the clover never did take off that are still brown, whereas whenever there is rye out there it’s big and tall by now. hope that helps. btw, another good reason to plant a cover crop like rye is that it’s real perty in the spring, nice and green – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After my spring vegetables finish this year, I’m considering trying something new and planting a cover crop in the bed. Anyone have any feedback on whether it is worth the effort and if it improves later performance of the bed? I’m considering either white dutch clover or annual rye. Jennifer
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Question:
I bought this plant back in 1981 from a local orchid nursery that has since gone out of business. It bloomed in 1984, when I took the following picture: http://users.snip.net/~pchris/ I thought the three petals were so unusual. I have not seen an oncidium like this in local shows. The nursery where I got the plant used to import lots of bare root species (not allowed today, I guess) and mount them on tree fern. I remember that when I bought the plant the owner said that he thought it was a species native to the Bahamas. But he was always very vague and inexact about names, and there was no label on the plant. The plant died in 1990. I would love to grow this plant again. Does anyone have any idea what species it is? At the time I bought it the nursery rarely had hybrids for sale, so I’m pretty sure it is a species. The plant was growing in a 4" pot, and I believe the flower was about 2" across. Peter
Response:
Indeed unusual. The only thing I could suggest is rummaging through Jay Pfahl’s site www.orchidspecies.com and see if anything resembles it. — Matthew Swift Swift’s Orchids www.swiftsorchids.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I bought this plant back in 1981 from a local orchid nursery that has since gone out of business. It bloomed in 1984, when I took the following picture: http://users.snip.net/~pchris/ I thought the three petals were so unusual. I have not seen an oncidium like this in local shows. The nursery where I got the plant used to import lots of bare root species (not allowed today, I guess) and mount them on tree fern. I remember that when I bought the plant the owner said that he thought it was a species native to the Bahamas. But he was always very vague and inexact about names, and there was no label on the plant. The plant died in 1990. I would love to grow this plant again. Does anyone have any idea what species it is? At the time I bought it the nursery rarely had hybrids for sale, so I’m pretty sure it is a species. The plant was growing in a 4" pot, and I believe the flower was about 2" across. Peter
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Question:
Derek – I have also seen keikis form at the top of mature pseudobulbs of Encyclia cochleata. It seems to happen most often when a spike gets damaged or is cut back before it has finished blooming, then the keikis form at the base of the spike. Some clones are more prone to it than others.
This one is growing on an older pseudobulb that doesn’t look like it’s ever flowered (at least there’s no cut-off spike, or any sign of one). Thanks for the advice. I’ll just leave the keiki alone for a while, and see what happens. – Derek
Response:
Derek – I have also seen keikis form at the top of mature pseudobulbs of Encyclia cochleata. It seems to happen most often when a spike gets damaged or is cut back before it has finished blooming, then the keikis form at the base of the spike. Some clones are more prone to it than others. There is no rush to remove the keiki from the parent plant. It will grow faster attached to the parent, and it shouldn’t affect the continuing growth and bloom of the parent adversely. Waiting until it has a couple pseudobulbs of its own and a few heathy leaves and roots will get it off to a good start. It shouldn’t be necessary to cut the parent pseudobulb to separate it, just cut carefully at the point of attachment. You may need to cut some of its roots if they adhere to the parent plant, but the shouldn’t hurt it much. Encourage good root growth before that by keeping it in a high humidity environment, or at least frequent misting of the roots as they form. Enjoy the mild oddity of your Encyclia keiki, and the free plant it will give you – and take some pictures to document it so non-believers can’t say you are crazy. Kirk Zentner Madison Wisconsin USA
Response:
I have an Encyclia cochleata which appears to be growing a keiki. I’m certainly nothing close to being an expert on orchids — I’m only guessing that this is a keiki based on stuff I’ve read, pictures of phal keikis from a book I have, and various web sites. But almost everything talks about phal keikis — nothing mentions encyclias at all. So… can encyclias grow keikis, or am I just confused? If they can, when and how do I cut it off? With phals, it looks pretty easy – you just chop off a section of the flower spike. But this one is growing right on top of one of the older pseudobulbs, "rooted" down in the crevice between the leaves. Do I chop off the top bit of the old pseudobulb or what? The leaves on the keiki (or whatever) are small, under a half inch long. It has one root which is almost 4" long and growing, but isn’t showing any signs of growing more roots. The plant seems healthy – it flowered after I brought it home from the orchid show last year, and it has a new pseudobulb with a new flower sheath (is that the right term?) this year. – Derek
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Question:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA…..you are soooo funny, you crack me up – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<unlucky> wrote in message news:3c3fd263.6684562@news.mindspring.com… > she said everyone…not nobody > On Fri, 11 Jan 2002 06:56:28 -0500, "Garrett Jaxx" <Garr…@bogus.com> > wrote: > >I’m here > >"Eleonore Beaudoin" <bc…@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message > >news:a1m2mj$q28$1@freenet9.carleton.ca… > >> Gee, this place is dead today…. > >> —
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wait , i’ll feel my tits and you just , you know – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Sat, 12 Jan 2002 06:06:54 GMT, unlucky wrote: >she said everyone…not nobody >On Fri, 11 Jan 2002 06:56:28 -0500, "Garrett Jaxx" <Garr…@bogus.com> >wrote: >>I’m here >>"Eleonore Beaudoin" <bc…@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message >>news:a1m2mj$q28$1@freenet9.carleton.ca… >>> Gee, this place is dead today…. >>> —
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now i’m confused…YOU’RE the gf? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Sat, 12 Jan 2002 07:24:19 GMT, perc…@uniserve.com (%) wrote: >wait , i’ll feel my tits and you just , you know >On Sat, 12 Jan 2002 06:06:54 GMT, unlucky wrote: >>she said everyone…not nobody >>On Fri, 11 Jan 2002 06:56:28 -0500, "Garrett Jaxx" <Garr…@bogus.com> >>wrote: >>>I’m here >>>"Eleonore Beaudoin" <bc…@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message >>>news:a1m2mj$q28$1@freenet9.carleton.ca… >>>> Gee, this place is dead today…. >>>> —
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Eleonore Beaudoin wrote: > > Caravans: (written before the women’s liberation movement > Was that written by a woman or a man?
A man, of course. 
I find that I don’t prefer how/what women write (Sheri S. Tepper is an exception that leaps to mind, though). I am chauvinistic in this regard because I don’t relate. I do view women as interesting writers when writing about women (recalling here that the books in my "Women" list are largely by women.) Regarding Caravans, my snapshot description may be misleading. While the woman I mentioned is the linchpin of the story, she is somewhat of a plot device used by the author to take us gallivanting around Afghanistan. > > Shogun: > The series did not grab my attention for some reason.
Yeah, it was a disappointment to me and I really wanted to like it. I think the book is too rich and complex for film; and when you burden it with a third rate actor (Richard Chamberlain) and wrong director (Jerry London did Hogan’s Heroes and The Brady Bunch TV shows) it’s gonna lose something. The book takes you down a gradual path from viewing feudal Japan as full of barbaric puzzlements to where you wind up with some kind of appreciation for its sophistication. I don’t think that the series succeeded on that level. > > Razor’s Edge > Same Razor’s Edge as movie with Gene Tierney? That I saw. Got the video here. > Watched it a few times, so I remember parts of it….
Yes. But I haven’t seen it so I will resist my impulse towards gratuitous warnings against judging a book by it’s movie. > > Confederacy of Dunces. > Well, see, I talked about it *as I read it*, and only now remember the hot > dogs thing cause you mention it. > One thing I also remember is sort of a mental note I made about somethign > specific to the narrator: the vision of the world changes with each > character, which gives way to the entire action in the book. The plot is > not so much built by the events, but by the *interpretation* of events > or projectiosn each character makes on some other(s), and in that., I > think it caught so well how real people are. It gave each character > a dimension too forgotten in literature, and showed its authors > exceptional genius right there.
There is a famous Kurosawa movie (Rashomon) in that vein, about how a single event is perceived four different ways by four different people and you are left to integrate them into your own (fifth?) perception. > >> heteroclite. > ("disparate" being French word again that I hope > exists in English?) (Disparate= that do not belong > to a same category).
Disparate has the same meaning in English. > Languages are fascinating for how sometimes the very essence of a culture > can be sensed in what words they have that another culture does not at all, > and what meaning they give a word that another language/culture does not.
I noticed this a lot with Japanese -vs- English (the soft drink advertising slogan "Feel Coke" actually makes sense to the Japanese). Also, I am fascinated by literal translations compared side by side with translations that are optimized for clarity of meaning. In China I was told that the standard warning sign on elevator doors says "In case of fire or ambulance, use the stairs" because the character for ambulance is also understood to mean any kind of unspecified dire emergency. > "Heteroclite" does not at all have per se a negative connotation, in > French.
I just looked it up in English and heteroclite has the meaning of ‘deviation from a common form or rule’. I don’t take that as a negative connotation, just that deviation=different. On the other hand, I think ‘deviate’ (used as verb) does not have a negative connotation while ‘deviate’ (same word with slight change of pronunciation and used as a noun) does indeed have a negative connotation. Go figure. > It *can* but is not used with that under it most of the > time, except, for instance, > if one would say "The room was burried under a pile of heteroclite junk". > Which would sound like the room Iam in right now:). And where it would > sound like a mess but because of the words "junk" and "pile" > and "burried". > I guess diversity is not seen as being that bad in the French culture > then **in the referent of this word** and of what I know of it in > English from reading your words above.
Well, I didn’t mean to give heteroclite or diversity bad connotations in English, so maybe I was playing too fast and loose with the original phrase ("heteroclitally compatible"). Disraeli
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she said everyone…not nobody On Fri, 11 Jan 2002 06:56:28 -0500, "Garrett Jaxx" <Garr…@bogus.com> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I’m here >"Eleonore Beaudoin" <bc…@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message >news:a1m2mj$q28$1@freenet9.carleton.ca… >> Gee, this place is dead today…. >> —
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=?iso-8859-1?Q?=B0=B0=B0?= (disra…@enter.not) writes: > <Resent> > Eleonore Beaudoin wrote: >> Gee, this place is dead today…. > <I sent this the other day, and it didn’t show up so I blew it > off, but since you sound bored, here it is again…>
Thanks. Being stranded at home all those weeks, being sick, could make things quite boring…As long as there are posts to read and reply to, it provides for some human "contact"…But the last days were so dead…. I am late in answering a few posts here and there, where I am not always able tow rite…But I do read all posts (thinking here of L’s reply to a post of mine for instance, that I can’t seem to find again….On a moment of better concentration, I’ll find it back…)… > =?iso-8859-1?Q?=B0=B0=B0?= (disra…@enter.not) writes: >> Eleonore Beaudoin wrote: >> I should bring you in a book store and have you name such >> categories to me until I’d go "YES!! THAT!". >> Business would bore me. > Ah, well, the categories are oversimplified to keep their numbers > down. For instance: Barbarians At The Gate might be set in > corporate America, but it’s really a story about warlords driven > by naked greed and thirst for glory conducting war on one > another. Could just as well be classed a ’suspense’ novel if not > for the fact that it’s a true story. (I’m fond of real-life > stories that have the elements of a good novel and I’ll admit > they pepper my list.)
I see. Yes, that does sound interesting. When I read "business", I rather thought of those long market reports, with dry columns of data, where that would sure bore me to death:). But I see what you meant, now. > >> Historical is a great idea, but there I want the >> entire encyclopedia and to read it in chronological order, not >> alphabetical. > My list is where I spent my own nickel for recreational reading, > so they are far from academic tomes- more like stories about/from > the past. For instance: > Black Like Me: about a white guy who shot himself up with melanin > to turn his skin black and then traveled in the pre-civil-rights > USA to experience what it was like to be "a Negro in the Deep > South". True story (with photos) helped kick-start the sea > change in white America’s civil rights thinking. (Could just as > well be in the ‘People’ or ‘America’ categories.)
That rings a faint bell…Maybe I read it, but I don’t think so. Maybe I read a critic of it…. > > Caravans: (written before the women’s liberation movement of the > 60’s) revolves around a liberated woman who seeks a kind of > freedom she can’t find in mid-century America. Fiction, naive, > eerily prescient, but also works as a travelogue and commentary > on pre-mid-east-conflict Afghanistan. (Touches on some > archaeological mysteries that I’d never heard of, too.)
Was that written by a woman or a man? > James Michener is a consummate rocking chair storyteller and > Tales From The South Pacific is the Pulitzer Prize winner that > brought him to the world’s attention. All sorts of themes on the > human condition in these Tales. You can read this and easily > think: Hey, this guy has a future in writing. LOL
:) > Shogun: Oh, my! Exotic setting sweeps you away, wheels within > wheels plotting, a thriller… superb.
The series did not grab my attention for some reason. I think I had missed episodes the two times I saw it replayed…But perhaps reading it would be totally different… Sometimes, some movie leaves me cold, while the book they made it from I find great, some other times -rarer-, I’ll like the movie, and not the book. > >> Although biographies don’t apeal to me much, I think it coudl be >> a good thing to ahve a clue who exists, existed and who they >> might ever be or what about:). > Well, I said ‘People’ to include more than biographies: The > Razor’s Edge
Same Razor’s Edge as movie with Gene Tierney? That I saw. Got the video here. Watched it a few times, so I remember parts of it…. is about marching to a different drummer. Thing Of > Beauty is a carrying-the-seeds-of-your-own-destruction tragedy. > Surely You’re Joking Mr Feynman is pure fun and too short by > half. (It’s an example of the mischief a guy can get into when he > is a genius and also possesses a genius for living.) Walt > Disney-Hollywood’s Dark Prince: (Say it ain’t so! Why don’t > they assassinate Bambi while they’re at it?). > Jeez, I could go on and on (that must be why they’re > ‘favorites’).
Quite an interesting variety though, by the description of it all. >> But for novels, it is different… >> I sort of get taken by the exerience, as in "live it", where >> then I do not memorize the pages, nor much of the story eihter!! >> I only will remember the FEELING I had reading them. "Yuk", >> "Boring", "captivating", etc. > I do the same. Case in point was when you commented a while back > on reading Confederacy of Dunces. After being surprised that > three people in here had read it -it must be the attractive > title- I watched people posting details that I had forgotten. > It had been long enough since I read the book that it had faded > to the point where I was thinking in terms of ‘the guy who ate > all his hotdogs’ and the remembrance that it was ‘comical’.
Well, see, I talked about it *as I read it*, and only now remember the hot dogs thing cause you mention it. One thing I also remember is sort of a mental note I made about somethign specific to the narrator: the vision of the world changes with each character, which gives way to the entire action in the book. The plot is not so much built by the events, but by the *interpretation* of events or projectiosn each character makes on some other(s), and in that., I think it caught so well how real people are. It gave each character a dimension too forgotten in literature, and showed its authors exceptional genius right there. So that I remember, and the sort of humour also specific to the book… > >> > Yeah. I know of an orchid called ‘Huntleya heteroclita’. >> > When I first read your original comment, I thought you were >> > calling me a hothouse flower… until I sussed that there is >> > also a ‘heteroclite’. LOL. >> Does it exist in English? I took a chance using the French >> word:). > Yes. Means irregular, deviating from the norm. It obviously fit > your context better than ‘orchid’.
Erm…In French, it means rather (in my own words) "a collection/group/ensemble of disparate items ("disparate" being French word again that I hope exists in English?) (Disparate= that do not belong to a same category). So in French, it has nothign to do with deviance from a norm:). Languages are fascinating for how sometimes the very essence of a culture can be sensed in what words they have that another culture does not at all, and what meaning they give a word that another language/culture does not. "Heteroclite" does not at all have per se a negative connotation, in French. It *can* but is not used with that under it most of the time, except, for instance, if one would say "The room was burried under a pile of heteroclite junk". Which would sound like the room Iam in right now:). And where it would sound like a mess but because of the words "junk" and "pile" and "burried". I guess diversity is not seen as being that bad in the French culture then **in the referent of this word** and of what I know of it in English from reading your words above. Chloe > > Disraeli
–
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Gee, this place is dead today…. —
Response:
I’m here "Eleonore Beaudoin" <bc…@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:a1m2mj$q28$1@freenet9.carleton.ca… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Gee, this place is dead today…. > —
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<Resent> Eleonore Beaudoin wrote: > Gee, this place is dead today….
<I sent this the other day, and it didn’t show up so I blew it off, but since you sound bored, here it is again…> =?iso-8859-1?Q?=B0=B0=B0?= (disra…@enter.not) writes: > Eleonore Beaudoin wrote: > I should bring you in a book store and have you name such > categories to me until I’d go "YES!! THAT!". > Business would bore me.
Ah, well, the categories are oversimplified to keep their numbers down. For instance: Barbarians At The Gate might be set in corporate America, but it’s really a story about warlords driven by naked greed and thirst for glory conducting war on one another. Could just as well be classed a ’suspense’ novel if not for the fact that it’s a true story. (I’m fond of real-life stories that have the elements of a good novel and I’ll admit they pepper my list.) > Historical is a great idea, but there I want the > entire encyclopedia and to read it in chronological order, not > alphabetical.
My list is where I spent my own nickel for recreational reading, so they are far from academic tomes- more like stories about/from the past. For instance: Black Like Me: about a white guy who shot himself up with melanin to turn his skin black and then traveled in the pre-civil-rights USA to experience what it was like to be "a Negro in the Deep South". True story (with photos) helped kick-start the sea change in white America’s civil rights thinking. (Could just as well be in the ‘People’ or ‘America’ categories.) Caravans: (written before the women’s liberation movement of the 60’s) revolves around a liberated woman who seeks a kind of freedom she can’t find in mid-century America. Fiction, naive, eerily prescient, but also works as a travelogue and commentary on pre-mid-east-conflict Afghanistan. (Touches on some archaeological mysteries that I’d never heard of, too.) James Michener is a consummate rocking chair storyteller and Tales From The South Pacific is the Pulitzer Prize winner that brought him to the world’s attention. All sorts of themes on the human condition in these Tales. You can read this and easily think: Hey, this guy has a future in writing. LOL Shogun: Oh, my! Exotic setting sweeps you away, wheels within wheels plotting, a thriller… superb. > Although biographies don’t apeal to me much, I think it coudl be > a good thing to ahve a clue who exists, existed and who they > might ever be or what about:).
Well, I said ‘People’ to include more than biographies: The Razor’s Edge is about marching to a different drummer. Thing Of Beauty is a carrying-the-seeds-of-your-own-destruction tragedy. Surely You’re Joking Mr Feynman is pure fun and too short by half. (It’s an example of the mischief a guy can get into when he is a genius and also possesses a genius for living.) Walt Disney-Hollywood’s Dark Prince: (Say it ain’t so! Why don’t they assassinate Bambi while they’re at it?). Jeez, I could go on and on (that must be why they’re ‘favorites’). > But for novels, it is different… > I sort of get taken by the exerience, as in "live it", where > then I do not memorize the pages, nor much of the story eihter!! > I only will remember the FEELING I had reading them. "Yuk", > "Boring", "captivating", etc.
I do the same. Case in point was when you commented a while back on reading Confederacy of Dunces. After being surprised that three people in here had read it -it must be the attractive title- I watched people posting details that I had forgotten. It had been long enough since I read the book that it had faded to the point where I was thinking in terms of ‘the guy who ate all his hotdogs’ and the remembrance that it was ‘comical’. > > Yeah. I know of an orchid called ‘Huntleya heteroclita’. > > When I first read your original comment, I thought you were > > calling me a hothouse flower… until I sussed that there is > > also a ‘heteroclite’. LOL. > Does it exist in English? I took a chance using the French > word:).
Yes. Means irregular, deviating from the norm. It obviously fit your context better than ‘orchid’. Disraeli
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Question:
Up until recently, Edvah Loo has been my only brassia. It is in an 8" SH pot right next to my few catts, and I can hardly keep it whacked back. I have divided it several times, and it seems to want to have 3 or 4 growth fronts every time it gets reestablished. — Ray Barkalow < First Rays Orchids http://www.firstrays.com Secure Online Ordering & Lots of Free Info!
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You might want to think about supplementing the light especially in winter. Brassias can take very bright light. Ken Woodward Newton, MA http://kwoodward.net First, I live in Seattle… Mine’s growing in my greenhouse (8 x 8 lean-to on the south wall of my house), practically touching the roof under 50% shade cloth in the summer, nothing right now. In the winter, the night temp is 58 and the day temp is 68, a bit more when the sun shines (rarely). Summer, well, I haven’t gotten the temp control in control yet so it occasionally spikes to around 100 but I try to keep it under 85 then the night temp is in the 60s. I’ve had the greenhouse for just about a year now, before that it was in my house, close to a south window on a humidity tray. All of you who are asking about your problems blooming Brassias need to tell us how you are growing them. Then we can help you. How much light do they get? Where are you growing them (be specific)? What are they potted in (potting media)? Matthew Swift Swift’s Orchids www.swiftsorchids.com Hello all!!! I have had a spider orchid for about 5 years now. I bought it at a show while it was in bloom, and it has never bloomed again! I have divided it, I put it outside in summer when weather is warm enough. Any suggestions to help me bring it to bloom this year would be very much appreciated… ;-)
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Hello all!!! I have had a spider orchid for about 5 years now. I bought it at a show while it was in bloom, and it has never bloomed again! I have divided it, I put it outside in summer when weather is warm enough. Any suggestions to help me bring it to bloom this year would be very much appreciated… ;-)
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I’ve a nice big brassia too which won’t bloom for me either. It was in bloom when I bought it and the next growth bloomed when it was growing in my house but now that I have a greenhouse it’s been growing nicely (has about 10 growing leads) but won’t bloom 
I understand (from a successful brassia grower) that they like lots of fertilizer when growing… but if someone has other tips, I’m happy to try!
Hello all!!! I have had a spider orchid for about 5 years now. I bought it at a show while it was in bloom, and it has never bloomed again! I have divided it, I put it outside in summer when weather is warm enough. Any suggestions to help me bring it to bloom this year would be very much appreciated… ;-)
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http://www.orchidexchange.com/Photos/web559.htm ( a picture) They are monster plants. I have never noticed mine NOT growing. I fertilize 150 PPM nitrogen (20-20-20) 3 out of every four times I water. I water this guy several times a week. 20 to 30% shade, which is very bright light. I grow it with cattleya. Lots of air movement to keep the leaves cool. The picture above was taken last summer, I think. Some of you have seen it before. Since it last bloomed I have moved it into a 16 or 18 inch hanging basket (I can’t remember which) and it has doubled in size and has some more flower spikes opening this week. I think there are only two or three spikes on the current bloom, but it has 10 or so bulbs maturing, so this summer it should throw a big flower party for itself.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve a nice big brassia too which won’t bloom for me either. It was in bloom when I bought it and the next growth bloomed when it was growing in my house but now that I have a greenhouse it’s been growing nicely (has about 10 growing leads) but won’t bloom I understand (from a successful brassia grower) that they like lots of fertilizer when growing… but if someone has other tips, I’m happy to try! Hello all!!! I have had a spider orchid for about 5 years now. I bought it at a show while it was in bloom, and it has never bloomed again! I have divided it, I put it outside in summer when weather is warm enough. Any suggestions to help me bring it to bloom this year would be very much appreciated… ;-)
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It’s good to know other people have as much trouble with these things as I do. I have a Brassia verrucosa that was in bloom when I bought it four years ago and no blooms since. The only spider I have that blooms consistently is a cross with oncidium: Brsdm. Longlen ‘Bill Switzer.’ I, too, appreciate anyu and all tips to see blooms on the others. — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve a nice big brassia too which won’t bloom for me either. It was in bloom when I bought it and the next growth bloomed when it was growing in my house but now that I have a greenhouse it’s been growing nicely (has about 10 growing leads) but won’t bloom I understand (from a successful brassia grower) that they like lots of fertilizer when growing… but if someone has other tips, I’m happy to try! Hello all!!! I have had a spider orchid for about 5 years now. I bought it at a show while it was in bloom, and it has never bloomed again! I have divided it, I put it outside in summer when weather is warm enough. Any suggestions to help me bring it to bloom this year would be very much appreciated… ;-)
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My goodness! That is huge! And absolutely beautiful. Cindy
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.orchidexchange.com/Photos/web559.htm ( a picture) They are monster plants. I have never noticed mine NOT growing. I fertilize 150 PPM nitrogen (20-20-20) 3 out of every four times I water. I water this guy several times a week. 20 to 30% shade, which is very bright light. I grow it with cattleya. Lots of air movement to keep the leaves cool. The picture above was taken last summer, I think. Some of you have seen it before. Since it last bloomed I have moved it into a 16 or 18 inch hanging basket (I can’t remember which) and it has doubled in size and has some more flower spikes opening this week. I think there are only two or three spikes on the current bloom, but it has 10 or so bulbs maturing, so this summer it should throw a big flower party for itself. I’ve a nice big brassia too which won’t bloom for me either. It was in bloom when I bought it and the next growth bloomed when it was growing in my house but now that I have a greenhouse it’s been growing nicely (has about 10 growing leads) but won’t bloom I understand (from a successful brassia grower) that they like lots of fertilizer when growing… but if someone has other tips, I’m happy to try! Hello all!!! I have had a spider orchid for about 5 years now. I bought it at a show while it was in bloom, and it has never bloomed again! I have divided it, I put it outside in summer when weather is warm enough. Any suggestions to help me bring it to bloom this year would be very much appreciated… ;-)
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humm… I recently moved it up a pot size so it may take a while to fill it back up. What I’m thinking is if it doesn’t bloom for awhile, when it finally does, I’ll get a good show! Btw, the plant is Brassia arcuigera.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Personally, I think they like to be pot bound and/or not over potted when/if you do divide them. Mine have always bloomed once they’ve crowded the pot. That’s my experience, anyway. Good Luck, K Barrett You might want to think about supplementing the light especially in winter. Brassias can take very bright light. Ken Woodward Newton, MA http://kwoodward.net First, I live in Seattle… Mine’s growing in my greenhouse (8 x 8 lean-to on the south wall of my house), practically touching the roof under 50% shade cloth in the summer, nothing right now. In the winter, the night temp is 58 and the day temp is 68, a bit more when the sun shines (rarely). Summer, well, I haven’t gotten the temp control in control yet so it occasionally spikes to around 100 but I try to keep it under 85 then the night temp is in the 60s. I’ve had the greenhouse for just about a year now, before that it was in my house, close to a south window on a humidity tray. All of you who are asking about your problems blooming Brassias need to tell us how you are growing them. Then we can help you. How much light do they get? Where are you growing them (be specific)? What are they potted in (potting media)? Matthew Swift Swift’s Orchids www.swiftsorchids.com Hello all!!! I have had a spider orchid for about 5 years now. I bought it at a show while it was in bloom, and it has never bloomed again! I have divided it, I put it outside in summer when weather is warm enough. Any suggestions to help me bring it to bloom this year would be very much appreciated… ;-)
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Personally, I think they like to be pot bound and/or not over potted when/if you do divide them. Mine have always bloomed once they’ve crowded the pot. That’s my experience, anyway. Good Luck, K Barrett – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You might want to think about supplementing the light especially in winter. Brassias can take very bright light. Ken Woodward Newton, MA http://kwoodward.net First, I live in Seattle… Mine’s growing in my greenhouse (8 x 8 lean-to on the south wall of my house), practically touching the roof under 50% shade cloth in the summer, nothing right now. In the winter, the night temp is 58 and the day temp is 68, a bit more when the sun shines (rarely). Summer, well, I haven’t gotten the temp control in control yet so it occasionally spikes to around 100 but I try to keep it under 85 then the night temp is in the 60s. I’ve had the greenhouse for just about a year now, before that it was in my house, close to a south window on a humidity tray. All of you who are asking about your problems blooming Brassias need to tell us how you are growing them. Then we can help you. How much light do they get? Where are you growing them (be specific)? What are they potted in (potting media)? Matthew Swift Swift’s Orchids www.swiftsorchids.com Hello all!!! I have had a spider orchid for about 5 years now. I bought it at a show while it was in bloom, and it has never bloomed again! I have divided it, I put it outside in summer when weather is warm enough. Any suggestions to help me bring it to bloom this year would be very much appreciated… ;-)
Response:
You might want to think about supplementing the light especially in winter. Brassias can take very bright light. Ken Woodward Newton, MA http://kwoodward.net
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – First, I live in Seattle… Mine’s growing in my greenhouse (8 x 8 lean-to on the south wall of my house), practically touching the roof under 50% shade cloth in the summer, nothing right now. In the winter, the night temp is 58 and the day temp is 68, a bit more when the sun shines (rarely). Summer, well, I haven’t gotten the temp control in control yet so it occasionally spikes to around 100 but I try to keep it under 85 then the night temp is in the 60s. I’ve had the greenhouse for just about a year now, before that it was in my house, close to a south window on a humidity tray. All of you who are asking about your problems blooming Brassias need to tell us how you are growing them. Then we can help you. How much light do they get? Where are you growing them (be specific)? What are they potted in (potting media)? Matthew Swift Swift’s Orchids www.swiftsorchids.com Hello all!!! I have had a spider orchid for about 5 years now. I bought it at a show while it was in bloom, and it has never bloomed again! I have divided it, I put it outside in summer when weather is warm enough. Any suggestions to help me bring it to bloom this year would be very much appreciated… ;-)
Response:
Temperatures sound OK, but try to keep those summer temps down by simply opening more vents. You can buy automatic vent openers really cheap. How long has it been since it bloomed? — Matthew Swift Swift’s Orchids www.swiftsorchids.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – First, I live in Seattle… Mine’s growing in my greenhouse (8 x 8 lean-to on the south wall of my house), practically touching the roof under 50% shade cloth in the summer, nothing right now. In the winter, the night temp is 58 and the day temp is 68, a bit more when the sun shines (rarely). Summer, well, I haven’t gotten the temp control in control yet so it occasionally spikes to around 100 but I try to keep it under 85 then the night temp is in the 60s. I’ve had the greenhouse for just about a year now, before that it was in my house, close to a south window on a humidity tray. All of you who are asking about your problems blooming Brassias need to tell us how you are growing them. Then we can help you. How much light do they get? Where are you growing them (be specific)? What are they potted in (potting media)? Matthew Swift Swift’s Orchids www.swiftsorchids.com Hello all!!! I have had a spider orchid for about 5 years now. I bought it at a show while it was in bloom, and it has never bloomed again! I have divided it, I put it outside in summer when weather is warm enough. Any suggestions to help me bring it to bloom this year would be very much appreciated… ;-)
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2-3 years but I don’t remember exactly. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Temperatures sound OK, but try to keep those summer temps down by simply opening more vents. You can buy automatic vent openers really cheap. How long has it been since it bloomed? — Matthew Swift Swift’s Orchids www.swiftsorchids.com First, I live in Seattle… Mine’s growing in my greenhouse (8 x 8 lean-to on the south wall of my house), practically touching the roof under 50% shade cloth in the summer, nothing right now. In the winter, the night temp is 58 and the day temp is 68, a bit more when the sun shines (rarely). Summer, well, I haven’t gotten the temp control in control yet so it occasionally spikes to around 100 but I try to keep it under 85 then the night temp is in the 60s. I’ve had the greenhouse for just about a year now, before that it was in my house, close to a south window on a humidity tray. All of you who are asking about your problems blooming Brassias need to tell us how you are growing them. Then we can help you. How much light do they get? Where are you growing them (be specific)? What are they potted in (potting media)? Matthew Swift Swift’s Orchids www.swiftsorchids.com Hello all!!! I have had a spider orchid for about 5 years now. I bought it at a show while it was in bloom, and it has never bloomed again! I have divided it, I put it outside in summer when weather is warm enough. Any suggestions to help me bring it to bloom this year would be very much appreciated… ;-)
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All of you who are asking about your problems blooming Brassias need to tell us how you are growing them. Then we can help you. How much light do they get? Where are you growing them (be specific)? What are they potted in (potting media)? Matthew Swift Swift’s Orchids www.swiftsorchids.com
Hello all!!! I have had a spider orchid for about 5 years now. I bought it at a show while it was in bloom, and it has never bloomed again! I have divided it, I put it outside in summer when weather is warm enough. Any suggestions to help me bring it to bloom this year would be very much appreciated… ;-)
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First, I live in Seattle… Mine’s growing in my greenhouse (8 x 8 lean-to on the south wall of my house), practically touching the roof under 50% shade cloth in the summer, nothing right now. In the winter, the night temp is 58 and the day temp is 68, a bit more when the sun shines (rarely). Summer, well, I haven’t gotten the temp control in control yet so it occasionally spikes to around 100 but I try to keep it under 85 then the night temp is in the 60s. I’ve had the greenhouse for just about a year now, before that it was in my house, close to a south window on a humidity tray. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All of you who are asking about your problems blooming Brassias need to tell us how you are growing them. Then we can help you. How much light do they get? Where are you growing them (be specific)? What are they potted in (potting media)? Matthew Swift Swift’s Orchids www.swiftsorchids.com Hello all!!! I have had a spider orchid for about 5 years now. I bought it at a show while it was in bloom, and it has never bloomed again! I have divided it, I put it outside in summer when weather is warm enough. Any suggestions to help me bring it to bloom this year would be very much appreciated… ;-)
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Question:
They only need that cooler temperature for about 2 weeks minimum. Matt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had great success with my phals after putting them in a room with a nearly constant 60 degree temp starting in early October. They have thrown out some spikes, and my question now is… can I move them to a warmer room? I am tempted to put them in the living room where they would have 66 degrees by day and 68-70 in the evenings. The other issue is that they would be close (about 2 feet) to a baseboard heater. They did fine there in the spring, but the heat wasn’t on as much. TIA Cheers- Erin http://www.geocities.com/lunachick01746/The_Ornsteens.html
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Although the temperature in NYC was surprisingly warm, (it’s really winter now) we had an amazing growing season. I live in an apartment, facing South, on the top floor of my building. We keep most of the available heat off, allowing the ambient building tenperatuire to suffice. It’s chilly at night, but a sweater does the trick. Suggest you isolate one room (best exposure is South) where you can adjust the temp. ….George ) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – flower stalk yet. I’ve done some reading up and most sources suggest dropping the temperature at night by about ten degrees for a period of time to make this happen. Well since the average temp here at this time of year hovers around freezing to minus 6 degrees (celsius) I don’t think that’s feasible in my home. The average daytime temp in my house during the day is about 22-23 degrees celsius and about 2-3 degrees cooler at night. Any advice?? Thanks. Alina.
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They won’t necessarily like being that close to the baseboard heater and the draft it produces. Try it with one and see how it does. K Barrett – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had great success with my phals after putting them in a room with a nearly constant 60 degree temp starting in early October. They have thrown out some spikes, and my question now is… can I move them to a warmer room? I am tempted to put them in the living room where they would have 66 degrees by day and 68-70 in the evenings. The other issue is that they would be close (about 2 feet) to a baseboard heater. They did fine there in the spring, but the heat wasn’t on as much. TIA Cheers- Erin http://www.geocities.com/lunachick01746/The_Ornsteens.html
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I have a phal which I brought back in June while it was in bloom but I have not had any success in getting it to flower since.
Alina, If the Phal was in bloom in June it may be to soon for it to flower again. It may be a spring bloomer. Be patient, they say it’s a virtue — Marty Shipps I never met an orchid I didn’t like or a cookie I wouldn’t eat!
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That’s like saying why hasn’t the Easter Bunny come yet? Answer? Because it’s not yet that time of year. Phalaenopsis grown all over the world are forced to flower throughout the year so that they can be sold throughout the year. But they only flower naturally once a year in late winter /early spring. They need a 10F/5-6C drop in temperature from your normal house temperatures for about 2 weeks to trigger flower spikes. This should happen in the month of September. That’s right, a full 6 months before they flower. Can it be done now? I suppose. But your throwing them all out of whack. Matthew Swift Swift’s Orchids www.swiftsorchids.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everyone, Just wondered if anyone out there has had experience raising Phalaenopsis orchids in a cold climate and successfully getting them to flower. I have a phal which I brought back in June while it was in bloom but I have not had any success in getting it to flower since. The plant appears healthy as it has since grown two new leaves and the beginnings of a new root but no new flower stalk yet. I’ve done some reading up and most sources suggest dropping the temperature at night by about ten degrees for a period of time to make this happen. Well since the average temp here at this time of year hovers around freezing to minus 6 degrees (celsius) I don’t think that’s feasible in my home. The average daytime temp in my house during the day is about 22-23 degrees celsius and about 2-3 degrees cooler at night. Any advice?? Thanks. Alina.
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Like putting them in the fridge, or what? <grin We had such a hot summer and warm fall that that would have been about the only way! ;-) — Reka http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html "I hate flowers – I paint them because they’re cheaper than models and they don’t move." –Georgia O’Keeffe | Your neighbor may have exposed them to certain conditions that made them | flower at an odd time of year.
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Okay, Matt, I agree with your principle, but why are my neighbor’s Phals all blooming now or already finished, and mine haven’t started yet? — Reka http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html "I hate flowers – I paint them because they’re cheaper than models and they don’t move." –Georgia O’Keeffe | But they only flower | naturally once a year in late winter /early spring.
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Your neighbor may have exposed them to certain conditions that made them flower at an odd time of year. — Matthew Swift Swift’s Orchids www.swiftsorchids.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Okay, Matt, I agree with your principle, but why are my neighbor’s Phals all blooming now or already finished, and mine haven’t started yet? — Reka http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html "I hate flowers – I paint them because they’re cheaper than models and they don’t move." –Georgia O’Keeffe Newsbeitrag | But they only flower | naturally once a year in late winter /early spring.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s like saying why hasn’t the Easter Bunny come yet? Answer? Because it’s not yet that time of year. Phalaenopsis grown all over the world are forced to flower throughout the year so that they can be sold throughout the year. But they only flower naturally once a year in late winter /early spring. They need a 10F/5-6C drop in temperature from your normal house temperatures for about 2 weeks to trigger flower spikes. This should happen in the month of September. That’s right, a full 6 months before they flower. Can it be done now? I suppose. But your throwing them all out of whack. Matthew Swift Swift’s Orchids www.swiftsorchids.com Hi everyone, Just wondered if anyone out there has had experience raising Phalaenopsis orchids in a cold climate and successfully getting them to flower. I have a phal which I brought back in June while it was in bloom but I have not had any success in getting it to flower since. The plant appears healthy as it has since grown two new leaves and the beginnings of a new root but no new flower stalk yet. I’ve done some reading up and most sources suggest dropping the temperature at night by about ten degrees for a period of time to make this happen. Well since the average temp here at this time of year hovers around freezing to minus 6 degrees (celsius) I don’t think that’s feasible in my home. The average daytime temp in my house during the day is about 22-23 degrees celsius and about 2-3 degrees cooler at night. Any advice?? Thanks. Alina.
I had great success with my phals after putting them in a room with a nearly constant 60 degree temp starting in early October. They have thrown out some spikes, and my question now is… can I move them to a warmer room? I am tempted to put them in the living room where they would have 66 degrees by day and 68-70 in the evenings. The other issue is that they would be close (about 2 feet) to a baseboard heater. They did fine there in the spring, but the heat wasn’t on as much. TIA Cheers- Erin http://www.geocities.com/lunachick01746/The_Ornsteens.html
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everyone, Just wondered if anyone out there has had experience raising Phalaenopsis orchids in a cold climate and successfully getting them to flower. I have a phal which I brought back in June while it was in bloom but I have not had any success in getting it to flower since. The plant appears healthy as it has since grown two new leaves and the beginnings of a new root but no new flower stalk yet. I’ve done some reading up and most sources suggest dropping the temperature at night by about ten degrees for a period of time to make this happen. Well since the average temp here at this time of year hovers around freezing to minus 6 degrees (celsius) I don’t think that’s feasible in my home. The average daytime temp in my house during the day is about 22-23 degrees celsius and about 2-3 degrees cooler at night. Any advice??
Hi Alina, I’m very far from being an expert, but since we live in similar climate (I live in Sweden) I can possibly be of some help. I grow my phal in my home on the windowsill, and the temperature is very similar to yours. Past year my phal had a floral stalk beginning from february, when we start to have longer daylight (I don’t grow under light). So, don’t worry! More light and a little bit of feeding made the difference. Switching off or lowering (spelling?) the elements in the room during the night (without freezing your family, of course) could help. I have also read that’s better not to cut old stalks until dried, it could compromise new flowering, delaying it. If you have a place in your home where the African violets grow great and flower, bingo! That’s the place for phals to put new stalks! My place is south-east, very bright but protected by the balcony of the upper level. Just my 2 cents. All the best, Anna Maria
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What about moving t to someplace cooler at night? Even moving it from the windowsill to the floor can bring a temp change of a degree or two Celsius, but if you could put it in a cooler room, that might help. — Reka http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html "I hate flowers – I paint them because they’re cheaper than models and they don’t move." –Georgia O’Keeffe | Hi everyone, | | Just wondered if anyone out there has had experience raising Phalaenopsis | orchids in a cold climate and successfully getting them to flower. I have a | phal which I brought back in June while it was in bloom but I have not had | any success in getting it to flower since. The plant appears healthy as it | has since grown two new leaves and the beginnings of a new root but no new | flower stalk yet. I’ve done some reading up and most sources suggest | dropping the temperature at night by about ten degrees for a period of time | to make this happen. Well since the average temp here at this time of year | hovers around freezing to minus 6 degrees (celsius) I don’t think that’s | feasible in my home. The average daytime temp in my house during the day is | about 22-23 degrees celsius and about 2-3 degrees cooler at night. Any | advice?? | | Thanks. | | Alina. | | |
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Hi everyone, Just wondered if anyone out there has had experience raising Phalaenopsis orchids in a cold climate and successfully getting them to flower. I have a phal which I brought back in June while it was in bloom but I have not had any success in getting it to flower since. The plant appears healthy as it has since grown two new leaves and the beginnings of a new root but no new flower stalk yet. I’ve done some reading up and most sources suggest dropping the temperature at night by about ten degrees for a period of time to make this happen. Well since the average temp here at this time of year hovers around freezing to minus 6 degrees (celsius) I don’t think that’s feasible in my home. The average daytime temp in my house during the day is about 22-23 degrees celsius and about 2-3 degrees cooler at night. Any advice?? Thanks. Alina.
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Question:
I haven’t paid much attention to the literature in this area in a few years, but when I was researching the area a few years back one of the interesting things was that the majority of somaclonal mutations, for reasons not yet understood, occured to both alleles, so I think that helps answer Max (without unfortunately giving the answer to the next interesting question).
Well that’s just plain weird! Mostly I’m talking from experience with animals so its really neat what differences there are in plants. Now how in the heck do two identical mutations happen in separate alleles??? They should by all rights be independent events. I wonder if it has something to do with template matching in DNA repair? The non-mutated allele gets "fixed" to look like the mutated one? Will wonders never cease!
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Chimera: An organism comprised of cells from 2 or more zygotes. (Gasp!) It sounds like my Phal Zuma Chickadee is an example of spontaneous mutation and not an example of a chimera. Wouldn’t a spontaneous mutation be the same thing as a ’sport’? There is still the issue of the stem prop with leaf patterns that are different from both sets of growth on the parent plant. There is only one Al.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sounds like you had a spontaneous mutation in the meristem, thats pretty cool, too bad you didn’t get to have both spikes simultaneously, but at least your keikis should retain the old form. A couple of points, we’ve discussed a few years ago on this forum somaclonal mutation briefly, and I thought you were part of the discussion and I had proof that there were two Als, but an archive search revealed I was discussing it with others. I’ve [snip] only seen a couple of other spontaneous meristem mutations, one is in a Paph Harrisianum that can be seen at http://ladyslipper.com/harris.htm and
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He’s been wrong before.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is only one Al. Sounds like you had a spontaneous mutation in the meristem, thats pretty cool, too bad you didn’t get to have both spikes simultaneously, but at least your keikis should retain the old form. A couple of points, we’ve discussed a few years ago on this forum somaclonal mutation briefly, and I thought you were part of the discussion and I had proof that there were two Als, but an archive search revealed I was discussing it with others. I’ve [snip] only seen a couple of other spontaneous meristem mutations, one is in a Paph Harrisianum that can be seen at http://ladyslipper.com/harris.htm and
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But for a mericone you have NO zygotes. Chimera has come to mean any organism with a mixed genomic background from cell to cell. A mericlone can be truly clonal, i.e. arising from a single cell and thus with the same genetic makeup or from two or more cells organized into a tissue. If the original cells are identical in genetic makeup you still more or less have a clone but if one of the contributing cells has a mutation and all cells contribute to the tissue, you have a chimera. Depending on which of the two genetic make ups are providing the growing spike you could get one type of flower or another. In one sense all female humans are chimeric for their X chromosome. Since in each cell one or the other X is inactivated and its 50 50 that it is one or the other, women’s tissues are of a mixed background for what is expressed on the X chromosome. Men aren’t because they only have one X to start with.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Chimera: An organism comprised of cells from 2 or more zygotes. (Gasp!) It sounds like my Phal Zuma Chickadee is an example of spontaneous mutation and not an example of a chimera. Wouldn’t a spontaneous mutation be the same thing as a ’sport’? There is still the issue of the stem prop with leaf patterns that are different from both sets of growth on the parent plant. There is only one Al. Sounds like you had a spontaneous mutation in the meristem, thats pretty cool, too bad you didn’t get to have both spikes simultaneously, but at least your keikis should retain the old form. A couple of points, we’ve discussed a few years ago on this forum somaclonal mutation briefly, and I thought you were part of the discussion and I had proof that there were two Als, but an archive search revealed I was discussing it with others. I’ve [snip] only seen a couple of other spontaneous meristem mutations, one is in a Paph Harrisianum that can be seen at http://ladyslipper.com/harris.htm and
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It is probably not possible to know which of the ideas Phaius and K Barrett suggested might be correct. I came across several "process" issues that can increase somaclonal variation as well as some variations where the mechanism of the mutation had been discovered, i.e. what actually happened in the genes to cause the change brought about by the process. I am content to have a group of sentences prepared that I can use if somebody asks me why the blue flowers I sold them are pink and at least a simple understanding of the issues and terms to answer the follow-up questions as I return their money in exchange for the pretty pink flowered plant. I have another plant http://www.orchidexchange.com/Photos/web004.htm The image is one of my most favorite mutations that I have collected over the years. Phal. Zuma Chickadee ‘Marilyn Munster’ This plant demonstrates what is meant by ‘chimera’. Whether or not it is chimeric, I don’t know. The first three times it bloomed it produced peloric flowers like the ones in the picture. I had a friend teach me to do stem props using a stem from this plant several year ago when it was still behaving consistently. Over the few seasons between the third time it bloomed and the fourth time it bloomed it grew new leaves from the crown that had a different silver colored variation pattern than the older leaves on the lower part of the plant. When it sent up it’s fourth and fifth spike one came from the area above the new leaf pattern and one came from below it. The flowers on the spike which formed above the new leaf pattern were NOT peloric, and in fact were much better shaped. Very flat. The spike that developed on the part of the stem with the old leaves did not flower, but made a keiki. This Keiki is still attached to the plant but it shows the old leaf pattern. As of today, I have a stem prop made from an inflorescence that I know produced peloric flowers. Strangely, this stem prop shows almost no silver color variation in the leaves at all. I have a Keiki attached to a stem on the old part of the plant that is currently in spike. And there is a spike growing on the new part of the plant with the newer silver variegated leaf pattern. I can hardly wait to see what this plant does as it prepares for it’s next trick.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In Al’s case there may have only been one mutation in one cell which then divided and divided and ended up forming a number of new plantlets. That is not to say that multiple independent mutations in different individual cells couldn’t have happened and certainly being in proximity to a mutagen would increase the probability. Something else the I didn’t think of before is that the plant you cloned from may itself have contained the mutation in cells that normally don’t give rise to the flowering part of the plant (making it chimeric). I have been looking into the difference between the terms autosome and somaclonal. [snip] "Somaclonal" is really the correct word to describe what may have happened in my example. I am not clear if some or all of a plants chromosomes are called autosomes, because I am not clear how or why the term would be applied to an organism that doesn’t have sex determining chromosomes (an X or Y chromosome). Probably just scientists being insufferably precise in their terminology. I only posted the reference I did because I thought the key was the amount of time your pink and blue cells spent in contact with "something" that changed the color gene expression. You were going for blue, a longer time in contact with ‘whatever’ cause an as yet to be determined number of pinks to form. Could that be plausible? I don’t know why I’m even in this thread. I have no idea what I’m talking about. (refreshing to have me state that, no?) Maybe I just like using that Google Search menu bar that SuE turned us all on to. K Barrett
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How about "Gee at least it bloomed for you!"
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am content to have a group of sentences prepared that I can use if somebody asks me why the blue flowers I sold them are pink Other options: 1) If you weren’t color blind, you’d see that it’s blue. 2) Think how rare the pink variant of the blue must be. 3) I could have charged extra, but for you it was the same as the blue. __ Ken Woodward ___ ____Newton, MA___ http:\ kwoodward.net
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I like reason #2 the best K Barrett – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am content to have a group of sentences prepared that I can use if somebody asks me why the blue flowers I sold them are pink Other options: 1) If you weren’t color blind, you’d see that it’s blue. 2) Think how rare the pink variant of the blue must be. 3) I could have charged extra, but for you it was the same as the blue. __ Ken Woodward ___ ____Newton, MA___ http:\ kwoodward.net
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I had a pink Ascda Princess Makasa in ribbon judging and someone said that it could not be the Princess. I think next year I will try for pink and blue Princess in bloom as well as pink and blue forms of Neostylis Fuchs Ocean Spray. What other pairs can anyone suggest ? ..Dar. Charm has blue and pink doesn’t it? Maybe an educational exhibit to educated the Judging team not the general public. SuE – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I like reason #2 the best K Barrett I am content to have a group of sentences prepared that I can use if somebody asks me why the blue flowers I sold them are pink Other options: 1) If you weren’t color blind, you’d see that it’s blue. 2) Think how rare the pink variant of the blue must be. 3) I could have charged extra, but for you it was the same as the blue. __ Ken Woodward ___ ____Newton, MA___ http:\ kwoodward.net
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I am content to
have a group of sentences prepared that I can use if somebody asks me why the blue flowers I sold them are pink Other options: 1) If you weren’t color blind, you’d see that it’s blue. 2) Think how rare the pink variant of the blue must be. 3) I could have charged extra, but for you it was the same as the blue. __ Ken Woodward ___ ____Newton, MA___ http:\ kwoodward.net
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And you say you have no time to talk to OrchidSafari… BUSTED!!! LOL!! K Barrett (kidding, only kidding!!) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is my third reply to myself. Somebody take this google search engine away from me. Autosome and chromosome are not synonyms. An autosome is one half of the chromosome pair of a non-sex determining chromosome. This is why we should all run for the hills. Just wait until I focus my obsession on the term mericlone and all the oddballs ways we use that word. I have been looking into the difference between the terms autosome and somaclonal. Sex cells (gametes) and autosomes, (non-sex chromosomes) are not the same thing. You know why. "Somaclonal" is really the correct word to describe what may have happened in my example. I am not clear if some or all of a plants chromosomes are called autosomes, because I am not clear how or why the term would be applied to an organism that doesn’t have sex determining chromosomes (an X or Y chromosome).
Response:
Sounds like you had a spontaneous mutation in the meristem, thats pretty cool, too bad you didn’t get to have both spikes simultaneously, but at least your keikis should retain the old form. A couple of points, we’ve discussed a few years ago on this forum somaclonal mutation briefly, and I thought you were part of the discussion and I had proof that there were two Als, but an archive search revealed I was discussing it with others. I’ve only seen a couple of other spontaneous meristem mutations, one is in a Paph Harrisianum that can be seen at http://ladyslipper.com/harris.htm and another was a Bc. Binosa where the clone ‘Lynn’ spontaneously mutated and was reawarded as ‘Sentinel’, I have a slide here somewhere showing both sides of the plants. I haven’t paid much attention to the literature in this area in a few years, but when I was researching the area a few years back one of the interesting things was that the majority of somaclonal mutations, for reasons not yet understood, occured to both alleles, so I think that helps answer Max (without unfortunately giving the answer to the next interesting question). This characteristic makes it useful for fast modification of crop characteristics compared to classic selection. Here was what I had written a few years back from the archive: "I would agree completely with Darrin, you can see some interesting segregation of characteristics in crosses. Another explanation may hold true also for Jewel Box as this is a grex that has been repeatedly meristemmed – somaclonal mutation. I did some research into somaclonal mutation and the slides I was able to come up with were astounding, tremendous variation in phenotype in some batches of meristems. The rate of mutation, if done under exacting conditions can be kept low (1 – 2%), but as things are "pushed" the rate goes up dramatically. This can be purposely used to rapidly create desirable traits, Rob Griesbach sent me one of his papers dealing with a non orchid ornamental where he was able to meristem it with increased auxin levels and select out cultivars with a dwarfed habit and an increased lateral branching habit that were stable in further generations. These characters were created in one generation, where it might take many by conventional selection. It has also been used in Phal breeding in Taiwan recently. If you have access to AOS awards slides or the AQ check out the pictures of Phal Golden Peoker ‘Ever-Spring’JC/AOS, Golden Peoker ‘S.J’ HCC/AOS, and Golden Peoker ‘Nan-Cho’ AM/AOS. The latter two (working from memory here) were sequentially derived somaclonal mutations (created by the meristemming process) and are are quite different from the original and each other. The other interesting thing about these particular plants is that the mutation is apparently sensative to environmental conditions (probably temperature), so that each flower on the inflorescence will be slightly different in patterning and color intensity. As a side point, if the mutation is considered significant and stable (two consecutive consistent flowers), the rules of orchid nomenclature say that it is no longer considered the original clone (technically no longer awarded if from an awarded clone), can be renamed and if desirable rejudged. An example of this is the awarded cultivar Vulstekeara Cambria ‘Gelb’ HCC/AOS is a somaclonal mutation of Vultekeara Cambria ‘Plush’ AM/AOS." If anyone is interested in seeing the variation from flower to flower in some of these Phals created by somaclonal mutation here are three consecutive flowers on the same inflorescence of a Phal Golden Peoker ‘Nan-Cho’: http://ladyslipper.com/nancho1.jpg , http://ladyslipper.com/nancho2.jpg , and http://ladyslipper.com/nancho3.jpg — Bob & Lynn Wellenstein AnTec Laboratory http://ladyslipper.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is probably not possible to know which of the ideas Phaius and K Barrett suggested might be correct. I came across several "process" issues that can increase somaclonal variation as well as some variations where the mechanism of the mutation had been discovered, i.e. what actually happened in the genes to cause the change brought about by the process. I am content to have a group of sentences prepared that I can use if somebody asks me why the blue flowers I sold them are pink and at least a simple understanding of the issues and terms to answer the follow-up questions as I return their money in exchange for the pretty pink flowered plant. I have another plant http://www.orchidexchange.com/Photos/web004.htm The image is one of my most favorite mutations that I have collected over the years. Phal. Zuma Chickadee ‘Marilyn Munster’ This plant demonstrates what is meant by ‘chimera’. Whether or not it is chimeric, I don’t know. The first three times it bloomed it produced peloric flowers like the ones in the picture. I had a friend teach me to do stem props using a stem from this plant several year ago when it was still behaving consistently. Over the few seasons between the third time it bloomed and the fourth time it bloomed it grew new leaves from the crown that had a different silver colored variation pattern than the older leaves on the lower part of the plant. When it sent up it’s fourth and fifth spike one came from the area above the new leaf pattern and one came from below it. The flowers on the spike which formed above the new leaf pattern were NOT peloric, and in fact were much better shaped. Very flat. The spike that developed on the part of the stem with the old leaves did not flower, but made a keiki. This Keiki is still attached to the plant but it shows the old leaf pattern. As of today, I have a stem prop made from an inflorescence that I know produced peloric flowers. Strangely, this stem prop shows almost no silver color variation in the leaves at all. I have a Keiki attached to a stem on the old part of the plant that is currently in spike. And there is a spike growing on the new part of the plant with the newer silver variegated leaf pattern. I can hardly wait to see what this plant does as it prepares for it’s next trick. In Al’s case there may have only been one mutation in one cell which then divided and divided and ended up forming a number of new plantlets. That is not to say that multiple independent mutations in different individual cells couldn’t have happened and certainly being in proximity to a mutagen would increase the probability. Something else the I didn’t think of before is that the plant you cloned from may itself have contained the mutation in cells that normally don’t give rise to the flowering part of the plant (making it chimeric). I have been looking into the difference between the terms autosome and somaclonal. [snip] "Somaclonal" is really the correct word to describe what may have happened in my example. I am not clear if some or all of a plants chromosomes are called autosomes, because I am not clear how or why the term would be applied to an organism that doesn’t have sex determining chromosomes (an X or Y chromosome). Probably just scientists being insufferably precise in their terminology. I only posted the reference I did because I thought the key was the amount of time your pink and blue cells spent in contact with "something" that changed the color gene expression. You were going for blue, a longer time in contact with ‘whatever’ cause an as yet to be determined number of pinks to form. Could that be plausible? I don’t know why I’m even in this thread. I have no idea what I’m talking about. (refreshing to have me state that, no?) Maybe I just like using that Google Search menu bar that SuE turned us all on to. K Barrett
Response:
In Al’s case there may have only been one mutation in one cell which then divided and divided and ended up forming a number of new plantlets. That is not to say that multiple independent mutations in different individual cells couldn’t have happened and certainly being in proximity to a mutagen would increase the probability. Something else the I didn’t think of before is that the plant you cloned from may itself have contained the mutation in cells that normally don’t give rise to the flowering part of the plant (making it chimeric).
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been looking into the difference between the terms autosome and somaclonal. [snip] "Somaclonal" is really the correct word to describe what may have happened in my example. I am not clear if some or all of a plants chromosomes are called autosomes, because I am not clear how or why the term would be applied to an organism that doesn’t have sex determining chromosomes (an X or Y chromosome). Probably just scientists being insufferably precise in their terminology. I only posted the reference I did because I thought the key was the amount of time your pink and blue cells spent in contact with "something" that changed the color gene expression. You were going for blue, a longer time in contact with ‘whatever’ cause an as yet to be determined number of pinks to form. Could that be plausible? I don’t know why I’m even in this thread. I have no idea what I’m talking about. (refreshing to have me state that, no?) Maybe I just like using that Google Search menu bar that SuE turned us all on to. K Barrett
Response:
Sure, mutations can occur just by chance or be induced by mutagens (like smoking and lung cancer).
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I looked at one of the results of a google search on ‘autoclonal mutation’ and it implied that a change could come about due to the length of time a sample was left in contact with the mutagen – or whatever you want to call it. ***** As I understand, somaclonal variation is a major obstacle in regererating Arabidopsis (re: after generating insertional mutations via T-DNA). I am currently taking my first course in plant genetics and I cannot find a very good definition of what exactly somaclonal variation is and how its arises during tissue culturing. I’m afraid this might be a reletively easy question but I’ve exhausted all of my (limited) resources. Any help would be greatly approciated. Thanks in advance. . Somaclonal variation: Somatic mutations which are clonaly propagated. . Mutations happen all the time. Every scheme for isolating insertion mutants (transposon, T-DNA, etc) is plagued by random mutations. For more info about somaclonal mutation, try looking up some of the early work by Evans and Sharp. In a nutshell, the frequency of somatic mutation in tissue culture can be increased or decreased by certain practices. As I recall, higher auxin levels and longer time spent in the de-differentiated state both tend to increase mutation rates. I am not aware of any evidence that the rate of somatic mutation in a minimised protocol is any different than the normal rate. In personal discussions with Dr. Evans, he suggested that the rate of mutation in his minimised system is not statistically different from the non- tissue culture rate of mutation (or so it appeared to him in preliminary observations at that time). At that time he was focusing most of his effort on maximising mutation rates to increase variation for selection in breeding programs. Bottom line, minimise exposure of your plants to known mutagens. Random mutations are likely to be an issue in any tagging experiment, find a way to weed them out quickly. Good luck. . Leonard N. Bloksberg . .
Response:
I have been looking into the difference between the terms autosome and somaclonal. Autosome: A term coined by Montgomery (1906) for the chromosome not involved in sex determination; a chromosome other than a sex chromosome. The diploid human genome consists of 46 chromosomes, 22 pairs of autosomes, and one pair of sex chromosomes (the X and Y chromosomes). Gamete: Mature male or female reproductive cell (sperm or ovum) with a haploid set of chromosomes. Sex cells (gametes) and autosomes, (non-sex chromosomes) are not the same thing. You know why. Somaclonal variation: Variation found in vegetative cells dividing mitotically in culture. "Somaclonal" is really the correct word to describe what may have happened in my example. I am not clear if some or all of a plants chromosomes are called autosomes, because I am not clear how or why the term would be applied to an organism that doesn’t have sex determining chromosomes (an X or Y chromosome).
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would guess that autosomal mutation is a reasonable term for what must have happened. You get a mutation in a non-sex cell and its called autosomal. The cloning process derives new plants from autosomes rather than gametes (that’s why its a clone). A mutation in a single cell that is the source of all the cells in your new plant will produce a mutant plant. I would guess that one could even get a chimeric plant giving rise to some blue and some pink flowers if one normal and one mutant cell both contribute to the cellular make up of the plant. Now what I think is interesting is that your results suggest (but don’t prove) that a mutation in only one allele gives rise to the switch from blue to pink color. If it took two mutations in the same gene the probability would be much smaller of getting this sort of mutation. Of course its possible that blue is a gain of function dominate mutation in the first place and loss of a single dominate gene could return the plant to the original pink color. Any idea of the proportion of pink and blue flowers in a selfing of the blue plant? Ah! Somaclonal mutation. I believe you have solved the mystery. The first term didn’t really seem to apply and it confused me. There is certainly a big difference between the two terms… not that I really understand what happened to my blue flowers, at least now I know what to call it. One of the links I found said it was ‘genetic meltdown in the cloning process’ and transposons are involved. It even sounds like it is common. So it is just one more datum to feed my growing belief that clones are not really copies. Run for the hills! Thank you. Al, do your search under "somaclonal mutation" and you should get the results you want. — Bob & Lynn Wellenstein AnTec Laboratory http://ladyslipper.com Hi, I have some mericlones of this plant Neost. Lou Sneary ‘Bluebird’ (Neof. falcata x Rhy. coelestis) http://www.orchidexchange.com/Photos/web423.htm The flowers of this large plant consistently bloom with a clear blue color very similar to the photo in the link above, (at least on my monitor) Now I have been selling mericlones of this plant for two years and they are starting to bloom. Some customers have reported that some are blooming pink. One customer who bought several told me that he has seen one bloom blue and one bloom pink. Somebody suggested that this could be due to an "autosomal mutation that occurred during the meristem process." I have looked up autosomal mutation on the internet and am not exactly clear on what it is and how it could happen during the mericlone process. Any and all ideas or explanations are welcome. Thank you.
Response:
Well, I looked at one of the results of a google search on ‘autoclonal mutation’ and it implied that a change could come about due to the length of time a sample was left in contact with the mutagen – or whatever you want to call it. ***** As I understand, somaclonal variation is a major obstacle in regererating Arabidopsis (re: after generating insertional mutations via T-DNA). I am currently taking my first course in plant genetics and I cannot find a very good definition of what exactly somaclonal variation is and how its arises during tissue culturing. I’m afraid this might be a reletively easy question but I’ve exhausted all of my (limited) resources. Any help would be greatly approciated. Thanks in advance.
. Somaclonal variation: Somatic mutations which are clonaly propagated. . Mutations happen all the time. Every scheme for isolating insertion mutants (transposon, T-DNA, etc) is plagued by random mutations. For more info about somaclonal mutation, try looking up some of the early work by Evans and Sharp. In a nutshell, the frequency of somatic mutation in tissue culture can be increased or decreased by certain practices. As I recall, higher auxin levels and longer time spent in the de-differentiated state both tend to increase mutation rates. I am not aware of any evidence that the rate of somatic mutation in a minimised protocol is any different than the normal rate. In personal discussions with Dr. Evans, he suggested that the rate of mutation in his minimised system is not statistically different from the non- tissue culture rate of mutation (or so it appeared to him in preliminary observations at that time). At that time he was focusing most of his effort on maximising mutation rates to increase variation for selection in breeding programs. Bottom line, minimise exposure of your plants to known mutagens. Random mutations are likely to be an issue in any tagging experiment, find a way to weed them out quickly. Good luck. . Leonard N. Bloksberg . .
Response:
I have been looking into the difference between the terms autosome and somaclonal. [snip] "Somaclonal" is really the correct word to describe what may have happened in my example. I am not clear if some or all of a plants chromosomes are called autosomes, because I am not clear how or why the term would be applied to an organism that doesn’t have sex determining chromosomes (an X or Y chromosome).
Probably just scientists being insufferably precise in their terminology. I only posted the reference I did because I thought the key was the amount of time your pink and blue cells spent in contact with "something" that changed the color gene expression. You were going for blue, a longer time in contact with ‘whatever’ cause an as yet to be determined number of pinks to form. Could that be plausible? I don’t know why I’m even in this thread. I have no idea what I’m talking about. (refreshing to have me state that, no?) Maybe I just like using that Google Search menu bar that SuE turned us all on to. K Barrett
Response:
This is my third reply to myself. Somebody take this google search engine away from me. Autosome and chromosome are not synonyms. An autosome is one half of the chromosome pair of a non-sex determining chromosome. This is why we should all run for the hills. Just wait until I focus my obsession on the term mericlone and all the oddballs ways we use that word.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been looking into the difference between the terms autosome and somaclonal. Sex cells (gametes) and autosomes, (non-sex chromosomes) are not the same thing. You know why. "Somaclonal" is really the correct word to describe what may have happened in my example. I am not clear if some or all of a plants chromosomes are called autosomes, because I am not clear how or why the term would be applied to an organism that doesn’t have sex determining chromosomes (an X or Y chromosome).
Response:
I think you are correct Al as the distinction really is between a somatic cell mutation and a mutation of germline cells rather than between sex chromosomes and non sex chromosomes. You have a mutation in a cell with a full compliment of chromosomes rather than a haploid set. That’s one of the reasons I was curious about the inheritance pattern of the pink vrs blue.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been looking into the difference between the terms autosome and somaclonal. Autosome: A term coined by Montgomery (1906) for the chromosome not involved in sex determination; a chromosome other than a sex chromosome. The diploid human genome consists of 46 chromosomes, 22 pairs of autosomes, and one pair of sex chromosomes (the X and Y chromosomes). Gamete: Mature male or female reproductive cell (sperm or ovum) with a haploid set of chromosomes. Sex cells (gametes) and autosomes, (non-sex chromosomes) are not the same thing. You know why. Somaclonal variation: Variation found in vegetative cells dividing mitotically in culture. "Somaclonal" is really the correct word to describe what may have happened in my example. I am not clear if some or all of a plants chromosomes are called autosomes, because I am not clear how or why the term would be applied to an organism that doesn’t have sex determining chromosomes (an X or Y chromosome). I would guess that autosomal mutation is a reasonable term for what must have happened. You get a mutation in a non-sex cell and its called autosomal. The cloning process derives new plants from autosomes rather than gametes (that’s why its a clone). A mutation in a single cell that is the source of all the cells in your new plant will produce a mutant plant. I would guess that one could even get a chimeric plant giving rise to some blue and some pink flowers if one normal and one mutant cell both contribute to the cellular make up of the plant. Now what I think is interesting is that your results suggest (but don’t prove) that a mutation in only one allele gives rise to the switch from blue to pink color. If it took two mutations in the same gene the probability would be much smaller of getting this sort of mutation. Of course its possible that blue is a gain of function dominate mutation in the first place and loss of a single dominate gene could return the plant to the original pink color. Any idea of the proportion of pink and blue flowers in a selfing of the blue plant? Ah! Somaclonal mutation. I believe you have solved the mystery. The first term didn’t really seem to apply and it confused me. There is certainly a big difference between the two terms… not that I really understand what happened to my blue flowers, at least now I know what to call it. One of the links I found said it was ‘genetic meltdown in the cloning process’ and transposons are involved. It even sounds like it is common. So it is just one more datum to feed my growing belief that clones are not really copies. Run for the hills! Thank you. Al, do your search under "somaclonal mutation" and you should get the results you want. — Bob & Lynn Wellenstein AnTec Laboratory http://ladyslipper.com Hi, I have some mericlones of this plant Neost. Lou Sneary ‘Bluebird’ (Neof. falcata x Rhy. coelestis) http://www.orchidexchange.com/Photos/web423.htm The flowers of this large plant consistently bloom with a clear blue color very similar to the photo in the link above, (at least on my monitor) Now I have been selling mericlones of this plant for two years and they are starting to bloom. Some customers have reported that some are blooming pink. One customer who bought several told me that he has seen one bloom blue and one bloom pink. Somebody suggested that this could be due to an "autosomal mutation that occurred during the meristem process." I have looked up autosomal mutation on the internet and am not exactly clear on what it is and how it could happen during the mericlone process. Any and all ideas or explanations are welcome. Thank you.
Response:
autosomal mutations are really quite common. Probably happens in your body lots and lots. Luckily you have a check on unregulated cell growth which is really the only concern about autosomal mutations. Your body detects such cells and kills them if you have a normal set of tumor repressor genes. If you don’t well you can develop cancers. Mutations in tumor repressor genes that knock out their function are a common finding in cancers. Other mutations are probably more or less harmless. What I wonder is not how many pinks to blues in the clones you have although if there are lots of them it probably means that the mutation arose early in the mericloning process or that the pinks were more viable than the blues for some other reason. What I"m trying to figure out is if pink or blue is dominate genetically. If you self your blue plant and get pink offspring it would suggest that there is one pink gene as a recessive in your blue plant.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That is interesting stuff. I have no idea of a percentage of pinks to blues. I only have heard of a few of them blooming so far. I have a feeling, that since they are (were) advertised as blue for the last two years, that it will be a greater portion of pinks that get reported back to me. So both autosomal and somaclonal are could be terms applied to what may have happened to turn my blue mericlones pink. I still think we should all run for the hills. I would guess that autosomal mutation is a reasonable term for what must have happened. You get a mutation in a non-sex cell and its called autosomal. The cloning process derives new plants from autosomes rather than gametes (that’s why its a clone). A mutation in a single cell that is the source of all the cells in your new plant will produce a mutant plant. I would guess that one could even get a chimeric plant giving rise to some blue and some pink flowers if one normal and one mutant cell both contribute to the cellular make up of the plant. Now what I think is interesting is that your results suggest (but don’t prove) that a mutation in only one allele gives rise to the switch from blue to pink color. If it took two mutations in the same gene the probability would be much smaller of getting this sort of mutation. Of course its possible that blue is a gain of function dominate mutation in the first place and loss of a single dominate gene could return the plant to the original pink color. Any idea of the proportion of pink and blue flowers in a selfing of the blue plant? Ah! Somaclonal mutation. I believe you have solved the mystery. The first term didn’t really seem to apply and it confused me. There is certainly a big difference between the two terms… not that I really understand what happened to my blue flowers, at least now I know what to call it. One of the links I found said it was ‘genetic meltdown in the cloning process’ and transposons are involved. It even sounds like it is common. So it is just one more datum to feed my growing belief that clones are not really copies. Run for the hills! Thank you. Al, do your search under "somaclonal mutation" and you should get the results you want. — Bob & Lynn Wellenstein AnTec Laboratory http://ladyslipper.com Hi, I have some mericlones of this plant Neost. Lou Sneary ‘Bluebird’ (Neof. falcata x Rhy. coelestis) http://www.orchidexchange.com/Photos/web423.htm The flowers of this large plant consistently bloom with a clear blue color very similar to the photo in the link above, (at least on my monitor) Now I have been selling mericlones of this plant for two years and they are starting to bloom. Some customers have reported that some are blooming pink. One customer who bought several told me that he has seen one bloom blue and one bloom pink. Somebody suggested that this could be due to an "autosomal mutation that occurred during the meristem process." I have looked up autosomal mutation on the internet and am not exactly clear on what it is and how it could happen during the mericlone process. Any and all ideas or explanations are welcome. Thank you.
Response:
That is interesting stuff. I have no idea of a percentage of pinks to blues. I only have heard of a few of them blooming so far. I have a feeling, that since they are (were) advertised as blue for the last two years, that it will be a greater portion of pinks that get reported back to me. So both autosomal and somaclonal are could be terms applied to what may have happened to turn my blue mericlones pink. I still think we should all run for the hills.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would guess that autosomal mutation is a reasonable term for what must have happened. You get a mutation in a non-sex cell and its called autosomal. The cloning process derives new plants from autosomes rather than gametes (that’s why its a clone). A mutation in a single cell that is the source of all the cells in your new plant will produce a mutant plant. I would guess that one could even get a chimeric plant giving rise to some blue and some pink flowers if one normal and one mutant cell both contribute to the cellular make up of the plant. Now what I think is interesting is that your results suggest (but don’t prove) that a mutation in only one allele gives rise to the switch from blue to pink color. If it took two mutations in the same gene the probability would be much smaller of getting this sort of mutation. Of course its possible that blue is a gain of function dominate mutation in the first place and loss of a single dominate gene could return the plant to the original pink color. Any idea of the proportion of pink and blue flowers in a selfing of the blue plant? Ah! Somaclonal mutation. I believe you have solved the mystery. The first term didn’t really seem to apply and it confused me. There is certainly a big difference between the two terms… not that I really understand what happened to my blue flowers, at least now I know what to call it. One of the links I found said it was ‘genetic meltdown in the cloning process’ and transposons are involved. It even sounds like it is common. So it is just one more datum to feed my growing belief that clones are not really copies. Run for the hills! Thank you. Al, do your search under "somaclonal mutation" and you should get the results you want. — Bob & Lynn Wellenstein AnTec Laboratory http://ladyslipper.com Hi, I have some mericlones of this plant Neost. Lou Sneary ‘Bluebird’ (Neof. falcata x Rhy. coelestis) http://www.orchidexchange.com/Photos/web423.htm The flowers of this large plant consistently bloom with a clear blue color very similar to the photo in the link above, (at least on my monitor) Now I have been selling mericlones of this plant for two years and they are starting to bloom. Some customers have reported that some are blooming pink. One customer who bought several told me that he has seen one bloom blue and one bloom pink. Somebody suggested that this could be due to an "autosomal mutation that occurred during the meristem process." I have looked up autosomal mutation on the internet and am not exactly clear on what it is and how it could happen during the mericlone process. Any and all ideas or explanations are welcome. Thank you.
Response:
Hi, I have some mericlones of this plant Neost. Lou Sneary ‘Bluebird’ (Neof. falcata x Rhy. coelestis) http://www.orchidexchange.com/Photos/web423.htm The flowers of this large plant consistently bloom with a clear blue color very similar to the photo in the link above, (at least on my monitor) Now I have been selling mericlones of this plant for two years and they are starting to bloom. Some customers have reported that some are blooming pink. One customer who bought several told me that he has seen one bloom blue and one bloom pink. Somebody suggested that this could be due to an "autosomal mutation that occurred during the meristem process." I have looked up autosomal mutation on the internet and am not exactly clear on what it is and how it could happen during the mericlone process. Any and all ideas or explanations are welcome. Thank you.
Response:
Al, do your search under "somaclonal mutation" and you should get the results you want. — Bob & Lynn Wellenstein AnTec Laboratory http://ladyslipper.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I have some mericlones of this plant Neost. Lou Sneary ‘Bluebird’ (Neof. falcata x Rhy. coelestis) http://www.orchidexchange.com/Photos/web423.htm The flowers of this large plant consistently bloom with a clear blue color very similar to the photo in the link above, (at least on my monitor) Now I have been selling mericlones of this plant for two years and they are starting to bloom. Some customers have reported that some are blooming pink. One customer who bought several told me that he has seen one bloom blue and one bloom pink. Somebody suggested that this could be due to an "autosomal mutation that occurred during the meristem process." I have looked up autosomal mutation on the internet and am not exactly clear on what it is and how it could happen during the mericlone process. Any and all ideas or explanations are welcome. Thank you.
Response:
Ah! Somaclonal mutation. I believe you have solved the mystery. The first term didn’t really seem to apply and it confused me. There is certainly a big difference between the two terms… not that I really understand what happened to my blue flowers, at least now I know what to call it. One of the links I found said it was ‘genetic meltdown in the cloning process’ and transposons are involved. It even sounds like it is common. So it is just one more datum to feed my growing belief that clones are not really copies. Run for the hills! Thank you.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Al, do your search under "somaclonal mutation" and you should get the results you want. — Bob & Lynn Wellenstein AnTec Laboratory http://ladyslipper.com Hi, I have some mericlones of this plant Neost. Lou Sneary ‘Bluebird’ (Neof. falcata x Rhy. coelestis) http://www.orchidexchange.com/Photos/web423.htm The flowers of this large plant consistently bloom with a clear blue color very similar to the photo in the link above, (at least on my monitor) Now I have been selling mericlones of this plant for two years and they are starting to bloom. Some customers have reported that some are blooming pink. One customer who bought several told me that he has seen one bloom blue and one bloom pink. Somebody suggested that this could be due to an "autosomal mutation that occurred during the meristem process." I have looked up autosomal mutation on the internet and am not exactly clear on what it is and how it could happen during the mericlone process. Any and all ideas or explanations are welcome. Thank you.
Response:
I would guess that autosomal mutation is a reasonable term for what must have happened. You get a mutation in a non-sex cell and its called autosomal. The cloning process derives new plants from autosomes rather than gametes (that’s why its a clone). A mutation in a single cell that is the source of all the cells in your new plant will produce a mutant plant. I would guess that one could even get a chimeric plant giving rise to some blue and some pink flowers if one normal and one mutant cell both contribute to the cellular make up of the plant. Now what I think is interesting is that your results suggest (but don’t prove) that a mutation in only one allele gives rise to the switch from blue to pink color. If it took two mutations in the same gene the probability would be much smaller of getting this sort of mutation. Of course its possible that blue is a gain of function dominate mutation in the first place and loss of a single dominate gene could return the plant to the original pink color. Any idea of the proportion of pink and blue flowers in a selfing of the blue plant?
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ah! Somaclonal mutation. I believe you have solved the mystery. The first term didn’t really seem to apply and it confused me. There is certainly a big difference between the two terms… not that I really understand what happened to my blue flowers, at least now I know what to call it. One of the links I found said it was ‘genetic meltdown in the cloning process’ and transposons are involved. It even sounds like it is common. So it is just one more datum to feed my growing belief that clones are not really copies. Run for the hills! Thank you. Al, do your search under "somaclonal mutation" and you should get the results you want. — Bob & Lynn Wellenstein AnTec Laboratory http://ladyslipper.com Hi, I have some mericlones of this plant Neost. Lou Sneary ‘Bluebird’ (Neof. falcata x Rhy. coelestis) http://www.orchidexchange.com/Photos/web423.htm The flowers of this large plant consistently bloom with a clear blue color very similar to the photo in the link above, (at least on my monitor) Now I have been selling mericlones of this plant for two years and they are starting to bloom. Some customers have reported that some are blooming pink. One customer who bought several told me that he has seen one bloom blue and one bloom pink. Somebody suggested that this could be due to an "autosomal mutation that occurred during the meristem process." I have looked up autosomal mutation on the internet and am not exactly clear on what it is and how it could happen during the mericlone process. Any and all ideas or explanations are welcome. Thank you.
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Question:
Hi, Susan, Psychopsis sanderae seems a bit more difficult to grow than other psychopsis or oncidiums. I took some out of a flask more than one year ago and they are just about the same size as they were then. . . . Pam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I will post the photos of ours over on A.B.P.G – see you there. Oh we do not have Psychopsis sanderae, we lost it last winter. SuE Ha ha ha! Well the site was kind of Goth, so I didn’t know if it was appropriate. I mean, other then the tattoo, it had nothing to do with this group, and you know how you guys can get. Anyone know how many types of psychopsis there are? I’ve run across a couple, but only show a picture of one variety. I curse (affectionately) the guy in this group who made me fall in love with that plant. Crystal — ~~~ Optional software required. AND YOU DIDN’T SUPPLY A LINK!??? ARRGH!! I think that’s grounds for expulsion! LOL!!!! Just how does one ban someone from particiaption on rgo anyway?? K Barrett inquiring minds WANT to know!!! While looking for a psychopsis papilio, I ran across a site that shows a gal with the flowers tattooed on her back. Actually looks really nice. Crystal — ~~~ Optional software required.
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Your a doll… going over now. Crystal — ~~~ Optional software required.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I will post the photos of ours over on A.B.P.G – see you there. Oh we do not have Psychopsis sanderae, we lost it last winter. SuE Ha ha ha! Well the site was kind of Goth, so I didn’t know if it was appropriate. I mean, other then the tattoo, it had nothing to do with this group, and you know how you guys can get. Anyone know how many types of psychopsis there are? I’ve run across a couple, but only show a picture of one variety. I curse (affectionately) the guy in this group who made me fall in love with that plant. Crystal — ~~~ Optional software required. AND YOU DIDN’T SUPPLY A LINK!??? ARRGH!! I think that’s grounds for expulsion! LOL!!!! Just how does one ban someone from particiaption on rgo anyway?? K Barrett inquiring minds WANT to know!!! While looking for a psychopsis papilio, I ran across a site that shows a gal with the flowers tattooed on her back. Actually looks really nice. Crystal — ~~~ Optional software required.
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My apologies, I can’t help pouncing on things that amuse my simple mind. I’m just trying to visualize a kid nicknamed "Sweaty" Pay attention, I screw up all the time, it will be your turn next time. Stephen
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – typo I’d better stick to swinging a hammer! Rick~ Just because grams has a grandchild that perspires a lot, I don’t think it is a good idea to call them sweaty, might give them a complex. Maybe the child could go stand by the orchids and raise the humidity a bit. Spartacus And grams reply would be well sweaty, your grampa forgot to water it! (and the milk man was on vacation) Rick~ The problem with tattoos, IMHO, is what happens when you get to be "of a certain age". I can picture a grandchild saying "Grandma, what’s that dead flower doing on your skin?" Big <G. While looking for a psychopsis papilio, I ran across a site that shows a gal with the flowers tattooed on her back. Actually looks really nice. Crystal — ~~~ Optional software required.
Response:
No apologies required Stephen, I liked your come back, it reminds me of my sense of humor at times. I get a kick from a lot of posts here, many seem to have a great time goofing around and showing the strange side along with the very intellectual they offer at other times. Rick~
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My apologies, I can’t help pouncing on things that amuse my simple mind. I’m just trying to visualize a kid nicknamed "Sweaty" Pay attention, I screw up all the time, it will be your turn next time. Stephen typo I’d better stick to swinging a hammer! Rick~ Just because grams has a grandchild that perspires a lot, I don’t think it is a good idea to call them sweaty, might give them a complex. Maybe the child could go stand by the orchids and raise the humidity a bit. Spartacus And grams reply would be well sweaty, your grampa forgot to water it! (and the milk man was on vacation) Rick~ The problem with tattoos, IMHO, is what happens when you get to be "of a certain age". I can picture a grandchild saying "Grandma, what’s that dead flower doing on your skin?" Big <G. While looking for a psychopsis papilio, I ran across a site that shows a gal with the flowers tattooed on her back. Actually looks really nice. Crystal — ~~~ Optional software required.
Response:
I will post the photos of ours over on A.B.P.G – see you there. Oh we do not have Psychopsis sanderae, we lost it last winter. SuE – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ha ha ha! Well the site was kind of Goth, so I didn’t know if it was appropriate. I mean, other then the tattoo, it had nothing to do with this group, and you know how you guys can get. Anyone know how many types of psychopsis there are? I’ve run across a couple, but only show a picture of one variety. I curse (affectionately) the guy in this group who made me fall in love with that plant. Crystal — ~~~ Optional software required. AND YOU DIDN’T SUPPLY A LINK!??? ARRGH!! I think that’s grounds for expulsion! LOL!!!! Just how does one ban someone from particiaption on rgo anyway?? K Barrett inquiring minds WANT to know!!! While looking for a psychopsis papilio, I ran across a site that shows a gal with the flowers tattooed on her back. Actually looks really nice. Crystal — ~~~ Optional software required.
Response:
Ha ha ha! Well the site was kind of Goth, so I didn’t know if it was appropriate. I mean, other then the tattoo, it had nothing to do with this group, and you know how you guys can get. Anyone know how many types of psychopsis there are? I’ve run across a couple, but only show a picture of one variety. I curse (affectionately) the guy in this group who made me fall in love with that plant. Crystal — ~~~ Optional software required.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – AND YOU DIDN’T SUPPLY A LINK!??? ARRGH!! I think that’s grounds for expulsion! LOL!!!! Just how does one ban someone from particiaption on rgo anyway?? K Barrett inquiring minds WANT to know!!! While looking for a psychopsis papilio, I ran across a site that shows a gal with the flowers tattooed on her back. Actually looks really nice. Crystal — ~~~ Optional software required.
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The problem with tattoos, IMHO, is what happens when you get to be "of a certain age". I can picture a grandchild saying "Grandma, what’s that dead flower doing on your skin?" Big <G.
OK, you’re forcing me to delurk here <g. Nina, from Germany, a fairly recent orchid addict- I had five or so until I found a new home for my cockatiels this year, and then I bought about 25 more orchids in a six month time span . IMO, you probably won’t get that many modeling jobs anyway when you’re "of a certain age", and I find tattooed old skin much more interesting than just plain old skin . That said, I will get an orchid tattoo sooner or later, but I haven’t decided on a species yet. Nina — C’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot. Louis Pasteur http://www.chaotropic.net
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While looking for a psychopsis papilio, I ran across a site that shows a gal with the flowers tattooed on her back. Actually looks really nice. Crystal — ~~~ Optional software required.
Response:
The problem with tattoos, IMHO, is what happens when you get to be "of a certain age". I can picture a grandchild saying "Grandma, what’s that dead flower doing on your skin?" Big <G.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While looking for a psychopsis papilio, I ran across a site that shows a gal with the flowers tattooed on her back. Actually looks really nice. Crystal — ~~~ Optional software required.
Response:
AND YOU DIDN’T SUPPLY A LINK!??? ARRGH!! I think that’s grounds for expulsion! LOL!!!! Just how does one ban someone from particiaption on rgo anyway?? K Barrett inquiring minds WANT to know!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While looking for a psychopsis papilio, I ran across a site that shows a gal with the flowers tattooed on her back. Actually looks really nice. Crystal — ~~~ Optional software required.
Response:
And grams reply would be well sweaty, your grampa forgot to water it! (and the milk man was on vacation) Rick~
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The problem with tattoos, IMHO, is what happens when you get to be "of a certain age". I can picture a grandchild saying "Grandma, what’s that dead flower doing on your skin?" Big <G. While looking for a psychopsis papilio, I ran across a site that shows a gal with the flowers tattooed on her back. Actually looks really nice. Crystal — ~~~ Optional software required.
Response:
Just because grams has a grandchild that perspires a lot, I don’t think it is a good idea to call them sweaty, might give them a complex. Maybe the child could go stand by the orchids and raise the humidity a bit. Spartacus
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And grams reply would be well sweaty, your grampa forgot to water it! (and the milk man was on vacation) Rick~ The problem with tattoos, IMHO, is what happens when you get to be "of a certain age". I can picture a grandchild saying "Grandma, what’s that dead flower doing on your skin?" Big <G. While looking for a psychopsis papilio, I ran across a site that shows a gal with the flowers tattooed on her back. Actually looks really nice. Crystal — ~~~ Optional software required.
Response:
typo I’d better stick to swinging a hammer! Rick~
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just because grams has a grandchild that perspires a lot, I don’t think it is a good idea to call them sweaty, might give them a complex. Maybe the child could go stand by the orchids and raise the humidity a bit. Spartacus And grams reply would be well sweaty, your grampa forgot to water it! (and the milk man was on vacation) Rick~ The problem with tattoos, IMHO, is what happens when you get to be "of a certain age". I can picture a grandchild saying "Grandma, what’s that dead flower doing on your skin?" Big <G. While looking for a psychopsis papilio, I ran across a site that shows a gal with the flowers tattooed on her back. Actually looks really nice. Crystal — ~~~ Optional software required.
Response:
Crystal, My girlfriend has a violin tattoo on her back. And, I greatly enjoy playing the violin in the evening after a hard day’s work at the office. http://personal.mia.bellsouth.net/mia/f/o/fourmick/flasks/Iplaythevio… At first I wanted her to get an orchid tattoo on her butt… but the violin turned out just as nice. Mick
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While looking for a psychopsis papilio, I ran across a site that shows a gal with the flowers tattooed on her back. Actually looks really nice. Crystal — ~~~ Optional software required.
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Question:
Al, If memory serves me right, it is Phal violacea var murtoniana. http://personal.mia.bellsouth.net/mia/f/o/fourmick/flasks/violaceamur… I have a nice sib cross of this in flasks. This picture is the pod parent. Great fragrance! JR Nursery in Somerville NJ just bought 8 bottles of it from us last week. Mick www.OrchidFlask.com
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Thanks both for your answers, I will have to think about mounting them. I can see why one could really get wrapped up in these plants esp. with the vibrant flower against that shining green background. Stephen
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can only speak about the one growing in my greenhouse. It is one of the common purple ‘Mauritania’ (sp) types. It is mounted on a cork slab. It, at this point, has leaves about 10 to 11 inches long. Each. I don’t think it has finished growing. Last year it made it’s first spike since recovering from bare root transport. The spikes are shorter than the leaves so it is a good thing the plant is mounted and the leaves are behind the flower spikes, which come out from the sides of the stem and up and over the leaves so the flowers are displayed against a green background. Very pretty. This spring it only had two flowers open at a time on this spike and it bloomed about 5 flowers and then rested all summer and has begun blooming on this spike again recently. Right now it has one flower and one bud on the old spike. It is also growing a second spike at the moment and has one bud on it. Flowers are about 2.5 inches wide and kind of star shaped with pointed petals that have green tips. It is very fragrant. I like it even though it was sold to me as the species Phal viridis. Among other things, I picked up a couple of violacea seedlings, one of which has now opened a flower. My question is how big are these upon reaching maturity, do they flower off the same spike for more than one season, and what is typical for flowers open on one spike? Thanks, Stephen
Response:
I can only speak about the one growing in my greenhouse. It is one of the common purple ‘Mauritania’ (sp) types. It is mounted on a cork slab. It, at this point, has leaves about 10 to 11 inches long. Each. I don’t think it has finished growing. Last year it made it’s first spike since recovering from bare root transport. The spikes are shorter than the leaves so it is a good thing the plant is mounted and the leaves are behind the flower spikes, which come out from the sides of the stem and up and over the leaves so the flowers are displayed against a green background. Very pretty. This spring it only had two flowers open at a time on this spike and it bloomed about 5 flowers and then rested all summer and has begun blooming on this spike again recently. Right now it has one flower and one bud on the old spike. It is also growing a second spike at the moment and has one bud on it. Flowers are about 2.5 inches wide and kind of star shaped with pointed petals that have green tips. It is very fragrant. I like it even though it was sold to me as the species Phal viridis.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Among other things, I picked up a couple of violacea seedlings, one of which has now opened a flower. My question is how big are these upon reaching maturity, do they flower off the same spike for more than one season, and what is typical for flowers open on one spike? Thanks, Stephen
Response:
Among other things, I picked up a couple of violacea seedlings, one of which has now opened a flower. My question is how big are these upon reaching maturity, do they flower off the same spike for more than one season, and what is typical for flowers open on one spike? Thanks, Stephen
Response:
I love Phal violacea. Mine grows beautifully mounted on cork. I water it daily and feed with Miracle Grow every couple of weeks. I couldn’t ask for a happier orchid. Each leaf is about 6-8 inches long. I’ve kept the old spikes on but am not sure whether it will rebloom on the old spikes. I’m a real advocate of cork cultivation-those orchids regardless of type all seem to do better for me. Hope you have the same success with your violacea that I have had with mine. Frank
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Among other things, I picked up a couple of violacea seedlings, one of which has now opened a flower. My question is how big are these upon reaching maturity, do they flower off the same spike for more than one season, and what is typical for flowers open on one spike? Thanks, Stephen
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