The Orchid Garden

Cypripedium tibeticum

Question:

Bought my first Cypripedium at the New York Show last weekend.  Cypripedium tibeticum The vendor gave me a general care sheet.  Does anyone have real experience with this species?  It’s my first attempt at Cypripedium.  I have the rhysome in a 6 inch pot of pro-mix with a handfull of perlite added for additional drainage.  Before planting it I soaked it for about 30 minutes in a solution of SuperThrive to give in hopes of making the roots take off. In one week it has pushed through the soil surface.  I plan to plant it outdoors near a white pine that is limbed up to about 8 feet.  The spot is generally moist and bright without full sun. I’d love to hear about someone else’s success with this plant. Gene

Response:

I haven’t tried that one personally, but here are a few places that sell them that might have some helpful info… http://www.dragonagro.com/dappaph.htm#Cypripedium http://thimblefarms.com/98orchidtf.html                                   Bob C. http://vchilder.home.netcom.com

Response:

Bought my first Cypripedium at the New York Show last weekend.   Cypripedium tibeticum The vendor gave me a general care sheet.  Does anyone have real experience with this species?  It’s my first attempt at Cypripedium.   I have the rhysome in a 6 inch pot of pro-mix with a handfull of perlite added for additional drainage.

According to Holger Perner in Cribb’s _The Genus Cypripedium_, C. tibeticum is a somewhat difficult species and, unfortunately, not the best choice for a beginner.  It is a montane species that requires cool summers and cold winters.  If your garden is subject to winter thaws, you will need to keep the plant cold to prevent it from beginning growth too early.  It should be kept constantly moist in summer but should not receive too much rain in winter.  The mix should be mineral based without too much organic material.  I suspect that Pro-mix or other peat based mixes might result in a rotten rhizome. Perner recommends any of the following mixes: 1.  One part loam pellets, one part seramis, one part rotten wood, and one part coarse sand 2.  Pure washed pumice or lava gravel 3.  Four to five parts fine sand and one part fen soil 4.  two parts gravel, one part perlite, and one part fine fir bark.   The pH should be between 6 and 7.  If necessary, oyster shells can be added to these mixes to raise the pH. Don’t be too terribly disappointed if the Cyp doesn’t survive.  Species like C. tibeticum are likely to be wild-collected, and you don’t know how well it was treated before you purchased it.  Did the vendor tell you how long he/she had been growing the plant, or was a recent import?   If you like Cyps and want to try other species, the best choice for a beginner is probably a seedling of the North American Cypripedium parviflorum.  For more info on C. tibeticum and other Cyp. species, take a look at _The Genus Cypripedium_ by Philip Cribb (Timber Press, 1997).   Good luck with your C. tibeticum.  I hope it grows well for you. Nick Nicholas Plummer remove the nospam to email http://www.duke.edu/~nplummer/

Response:

Don’t be too terribly disappointed if the Cyp doesn’t survive.  Species like C. tibeticum are likely to be wild-collected

While I’m being crotchety, I think the lack of reaction to this post versus the reaction to the Cyp. acaule posts gives veracity to Stephen’s speculation that we only tend to have a problem when the plant is collected in our own backyard, it’s okay if it comes from another country. Bob

Response:

While I’m being crotchety, I think the lack of reaction to this post versus the reaction to the Cyp. acaule posts gives veracity to Stephen’s speculation that we only tend to have a problem when the plant is collected in our own backyard, it’s okay if it comes from another country.

        It could also be that the case as to whether or not the tibeticums in question may or may not be wild-collected, and cursing them to eternal damnation (would would normally be the USRDA of venom) would be based on speculation, versus the relatively abundant data in the case of the acaules.         Chinese cyps are much like Vietnamese paphs in that exports simply "don’t happen." The permits aren’t officially issued, just like Mexico and (if my understanding is correct) Peru. How they would get in past the normally rigorous Canadian customs (for Thimble Farms) is beyond me. Thimble Farms appears to sell a number of species as propagules, and The Cypripedium Dieties have informed me that they’re apparently legit on that front. Now, a chunk of tibeticum or other cypripedium from the sales table an orchid society- who knows.         Cheers,         -AJHicks         Chandler, AZ

Response:

Speaking of the acaule (one more time), since Vermont Ladyslipper Co is reputed to be the only "legit" source of non wild collected acaule, I wonder where Thimble Farms (as well as a few others on the WWW) got the ones they’re selling?                                 Bob C.

Response:

Fraser’s Thimble Farms grows native orchids from seed. Several species are listed in the catalogue as available in flasks, and they invite customers to try their hand at deflasking Cyp. seedlings. I know a lady in Manitoba who has a native plant business, specializing in Cypripediums. She grows C. acaule from seed, using a lab setup. She told me C. acaule has been the easiest Cyp. for her to grow from seed (not to be confused with it being easy to grow in your garden). As a Canadian, I have at least these two choices. There must be more than just 1 such company in the USA? Glen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Speaking of the acaule (one more time), since Vermont Ladyslipper Co is reputed to be the only "legit" source of non wild collected acaule, I wonder where Thimble Farms (as well as a few others on the WWW) got the ones they’re selling?                                Bob C.

Response:

I’ve heard good things about Thimble Farms (I’ve ordered cyps from them myself). I guess some folks need to update their advertising. It’s good to know there are a few choices out there now other than the plant poachers for some of the scarce plants. To give VLS their due, while they may no longer be the only game in town (depending on who you ask), they were the groundbreakers who first grew acaule commercially.                                     Bob C.

Response:

I think we have the making of a good ol boyz network w/o necessarliy meaning to. First the lack of response to the Cypripedium tibeticum I am sure it has do partly with its being sold at an Orchid Show. There have been plenty of other posts against growers w/o full details being in.  And to constantly hear that Vermont is the only legitimate source begs 2 questions, where did the originals come from and on this vast planet is it reasonable to expect that no one else would figure it out. If they really are the only ones fine, but please demonstrate this to be true, because to keep stating it by default labels the other growers as illegitimate.  Personally if some is breaking the law, I really do want to know about it,  but we can’t  taint the image of growers who do it right by speculating. I think one of the ways to stop the law breakers is to encourage more legit sources. The more access there is to legit plants the less demand for the diggers. Most people in this group would pay the higher price of propagated rather than look for bargains from illegal diggers. Arron and I last year traded email last year about some of the worst insectivorous plant vendors, one I remember as a child. (Won’t mention their name but similar to a popular candy bar). He told me , thankfully, they had been finally shut down. Also there is the point of how well are the plants grown  I have found there is a huge difference in the viability of the plants from sources such as California Carnivores and the Little Pot of Horrors plants sold virtually everywhere. Even though both are propagated, California is there to give you tips , growing advice etc to keep them growing. I have bought from Thimble Farms and posted recently about the fact they did indeed ship with a valid CITES (Post was ignored). Ihad also phoned them first inorder to try and get a warm feeling that they were okay. Since they offer seedlings and plants in flasks I thinks its fair bet that propagation is going on. Glen, could you forward the name ofthe lady in Manotoba and does she ship to the US?  .I have seen one other Cyp source in Canada but they do not ship to US, making one wonder if its a CITES issue or if they just chooses not too. Best Regards, Glenn (the 2 N one)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Speaking of the acaule (one more time), since Vermont Ladyslipper Co is reputed to be the only "legit" source of non wild collected acaule, I wonder where Thimble Farms (as well as a few others on the WWW) got the ones they’re selling?                               Bob C.

Response:

First the lack of response to the Cypripedium tibeticum, I am sure it has do partly with its being sold at an Orchid Show. There have been plenty of other posts against growers w/o full details being in. And to constantly hear that Vermont is the only legitimate source begs 2 questions, where did the originals come from and on this vast planet is it reasonable to expect that no one else would figure it out. If they really are the only ones fine, but please demonstrate this to be true, because to keep stating it by default labels the other growers as illegitimate.

Actually, I responded to your message and have expressed your same thoughts before. Usually I got a sermon from someone who read/was told something somewhere about this or that company or a tirade about plant poachers in general. Personally if some is breaking the law, I really do want to know about it, but we can’t taint the image of growers who do it right by speculating. I think one of the ways to stop the law breakers is to encourage more legit sources. The more access there is to legit plants the less demand for the diggers.

I said the same thing (I’ve also read the same comments from some of those legit growers), but got either silence or comments about how it wouldn’t change anything or these plant should only be grown by professionals. BTW, most "negative" comments seem to be by people who have an interest in orchids other than as a hobby. I have bought from Thimble Farms and posted recently about the fact they did indeed ship with a valid CITES (Post was ignored). I had also phoned them first in order to try and get a warm feeling that they were okay. Since they offer seedlings and plants in flasks I thinks its fair bet that propagation is going on.

Your post wasn’t really ignored since I responded myself. I just think it didn’t fit with the PC mindset of a vocal minority (I’m sure to get a response on that one!). Again, I agree with you and have stated so before about other growers. I have bought Cyps from Thimble Farms myself (I’m waiting for a shipment as we speak), as well as Rocky Mountain Orchids, VLS and Spangle Creek Labs. However, the responses I got were to a comment on some acaule I purchased from Lowe’s, if you remember that incident! FYI, I did receive a number of positive responses during the great Lowe’s Acaule War, but they were usually as personal email instead of posts to the newsgroup. There are many lurkers who read the posts to RGO, but don’t respond or actively participate in the discussions. Quite a few folks agreed with many/most of my comments during the "war", but didn’t want to get caught in the crossfire. I’m sure the same applies here as well.                                  Bob C.

Response:

And to constantly hear that Vermont is the only legitimate source begs 2 questions, where did the originals come from and on this vast planet is it reasonable to expect that no one else would figure it out. If they really are the only ones fine, but please demonstrate this to be true, because to keep stating it by default labels the other growers as illegitimate.

        I think there’s been some confusion. It has been asserted only that Vermont Ladyslipper has been the only company that sells Cypripedium acaule as propagules. I don’t believe anyone has stated that the company is the only legit source of any or all cypripediums, and a quick review via www.deja.com shows this to be the case. If Thimble Farms is selling Cypripedium acaule as propagules, that’s great. I assume this is a new development, in the past year or so.         Over the past couple of years, I’ve spoken with or corresponded with many of the growers who sell cypripediums and other temperate orchids; there’s been an explosion in the number of propagators, so it’s difficult to keep tabs on them all- but as you noted, it’s simple enough to see which species they offer as propagules in flask and as seedlings to at least get a sense that they’re legit. It’s even easier to ask a few key questions, and see if they use a trowel or a flask as their source.         Cheers,         -AJHicks         Chandler, AZ

Response:

Sounds like all the orchid judges at the Japanese Grand Prix.  They will be big purple cattleya corsages.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well close. It will be Orchid Police in a sense, but they will come late at night in black cars , black suits, bad haircuts and sun glasses (explains why they drive badly ay night). The really bent ones will be wearing Cattleya corsages !!!

Response:

The discussion about Cypripedium tibeticum appears to have been based on the assumption that these plants must have been illegally collected in China. Actually, C tibeticum enjoy a wide distribution right across the Himalayas. China, Bhutan, Nepal, & India (The Genus Cypripedium – P Cribb; 100 beautiful Himalayan Orchids – U & S Pradhan). Whilst the Chinese Government does not issue CITES certificates, they have been known to  allow small amounts of seed to be collected by certain visiting botanical parties (personal comunication). Weng

Response:

Oh my goodness….what have I started? I bought the rhyzome from Dragon Agro at the the NYC Show.  The plant is doing well in the pot for now. Do I have to worry about the plant police coming through the door?  I guess I’ve read too many Orchid novels. Gene

Response:

Gene, You haven’t started anything so don’t sweat it if you are a little concerned.  These little go rounds happen every now and then and it seems to revolve around Cypridiums lately.  AS far as Dragon Agro, no one seems to know if some of the plants they sell are legally collected, propagated, or if they are entering the country with false paperwork and have been ripped from their habitats.  Maybe yes, maybe no, who knows. Take it with a grain of salt. Try to buy species plants propagated via seed and if this is not possible, try to buy from people who are rescuing plants from habitat destruction.  The last is kind of hard to figure out esp. on tropicals. Now if you really want to see some fireworks, post a full blown graphic file with a question to this newsgroup.  If I or someone else answers that question attached to the graphics, stand back because you might see a mighty long thread with a little nastiness involved.  Best suggestion, don’t do it, keep the peace.  If I see a graphics file, I am tempted to answer it just to thumb my nose at some.  Ah well, don’t do it! Stephen

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh my goodness….what have I started? I bought the rhyzome from Dragon Agro at the the NYC Show.  The plant is doing well in the pot for now. Do I have to worry about the plant police coming through the door?  I guess I’ve read too many Orchid novels. Gene

Response:

Now if you really want to see some fireworks, post a full blown graphic file with a question to this newsgroup.  If I or someone else answers that question attached to the graphics, stand back because you might see a mighty long thread with a little nastiness involved.  Best suggestion, don’t do it, keep the peace.  If I see a graphics file, I am tempted to answer it just to thumb my nose at some.  Ah well, don’t do it! Stephen

LOL!

Response:

| Now if you really want to see some fireworks, post a full blown graphic file | with a question to this newsgroup.  If I or someone else answers that | question attached to the graphics, stand back because you might see a mighty | long thread with a little nastiness involved.  Best suggestion, don’t do it, | keep the peace.  If I see a graphics file, I am tempted to answer it just to | thumb my nose at some.  Ah well, don’t do it! | Stephen | | | | LOL! Hello Howard, Speaking of graphics, when are we going to see some pics of your basement & orchids? Stephen is like a breath of fresh air in our News Group. Cheers Wendy

Response:

Well close. It will be Orchid Police in a sense, but they will come late at night in black cars , black suits, bad haircuts and sun glasses (explains why they drive badly ay night). The really bent ones will be wearing Cattleya corsages !!! They know what the orchids are up to and what they want and why they are here. They know they orchids are the ones really in charge not us. (If you can find an out of print copy, read The Pollinators of Eden). Back to the Salem Cyp Trials. Its great these things get started. This is one of the few, extremely few news groups where you can debate and have strong opinions without the seven word syoucan’t say on TV coming into to place.  The real issue is that everyone in this Cyp debate does care. Its just we all have differring opinions about how to care.  The info Arron provides is priceless , he obviously has contacts and resources many of us do not and I firmly stand with him in trying to stop places like Lowes. However I am also with Bob. When I see a Spring Wildflower display in dissarray and packets lying on the floor to be stepped on, I consider buying them a rescue effort. I respect that Arron disagrees but at that moment I prefer to save that plant. That not withstanding, next year when I know to expect it I will use Arron’s info about the guy selling to Lowe’s and try to get one of the 4 local consumer news reporters interested. (Lowes advertises a lot so it may not go as easy as it sounds).  I have recycled dogs, cats, horses. (Even my girlfriened was previously married, nah better stop with the dogs, cats , horses or I’ll be recycled) so to me despite what I feel about the people selling the Acaules ,at that point I consider myself rescuing them.They will either die in Harry Homeowner’s garden or at least have a chance with me since I have resources like you folks to help me grow and cultivate them properly. And if I think I have found a good grower and it turns out Arron or someone else can prove to me different, I want to know.  But again, we need to have a criteria for what is illegitimate and these discussions/debates how iron that out. Progagation existed long before we had flasks and tissue culture and used to simply refer to something as simple as a cutting of another plant being rooted. So if someone legaly obtains a plant(s) with a CITES permit (from a construction site for instance),plants them in a bed and sells cuttings, to me that is a propagated plant. Clearly my Acaules from Frasier (with CITES) appear to possiblybe from beds. By the same token, just because the law does allow something does not in all cases make it ethical. For example the baby seal hunts are legal and then there is the "legal" hunting of whales Japan does under a loophole about scientic investigation. Again, these debates at least help people sort these things out , even if we do not all arrive at the same conclusion. Anyway as long as its civil, we should keep up this and other discussions. The product of these debates should be of course how we can use our resources to help get the bad characters out of buisiness and how to possibly help others in the group with the same dilemmas. I popped over to rec.gardens.roses the other day and their was some language between a couple of folks that would do a scifi or wrestling newsgroup proud (so I’ve heard). So we do well I think. Lastly, I am not responsible for what I have typed, the big Paph from the Christmas auction controls everything I think and say. Its big and very powerful. Send the orchid police before it too late . Glenn

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh my goodness….what have I started? I bought the rhyzome from Dragon Agro at the the NYC Show.  The plant is doing well in the pot for now. Do I have to worry about the plant police coming through the door?  I guess I’ve read too many Orchid novels. Gene

Response:

 So, hey- no airtight case, but this isn’t court. This is for people who want to make purchases based on the integrity of the dealer, which doesn’t seem to matter much these days anyway.

You’re making it a court of public opinion with your statements, so I ask you to be careful. Integrity does matter to a lot of us, but integrity does not have to do with what others say or do, it has to do with how we handle matters ourselves, publicly and privately. What you are affecting is reputation, which is often beyond the control of the individual but rather more in the control of those who wish to affect it.         Just about zero, as Vietnam isn’t recognized for valid CITES export permits- but you know this, of course.

Actually, I have made enquiries of USF&WL regarding this, and they say that CITES II permits from Vietnam are valid.         It’s already illegal to export these plants from Vietnam. Besides, people are tired of the howling and whining (mine in particular, I’m sure), and none of it does any good.

I disagree, specific statement of fact with basis to prove fact can do a lot of good, at the least raising awareness, and with regard to the authorities ability to enforce the laws.         If that was me and my reference to Dragon Agro, I stand by it. I don’t doubt they’re importing them legally in the sense that they have CITES permits.

Then if they are doing business legally please don’t make accusations that can affect their livelihood! If you don’t like the laws or their implimenation fight them. I challenge the validity of the permits issued by the country of origin, in the same way that export permits from Peru, Mexico, and Vietnam are suspect. Peter O’Byrne (who used to be inside the CITES permitting system in that part of the world) notes that Vietnam, Malaysia, Papau New Guinea, China, Laos, and Brunei have banned export of ALL orchids. I probably missed a few countries in there. So if China doesn’t produce the export permits, they are being brought in illegally.         Importers know they’re breaking the law bringing in wild-collected plants from Mexico, but it happens all the time. It’s also recognized inside the cypripedium trade that the species imported from China are wild-collected, and brought in with forged permits.

Suspect is used a lot here. If you know this to be fact, then you should be "howling and whining" to USF&WL. They will stop any plants accompanied by paperwork that is invalid in any way, most people "howl and whine" that they are too eager to do this. But again, if you make enquiries of them, I think you’ll find that they are staying as on top of these things as possible, and would welcome any hard evidence of illegality. That is something you could do that would make a difference, but your going to need more evidence than Peter O’Byrne’s saying its so. I have heard it bandied about that Vietnam bans all export of indigenous orchids by law, but when I asked USF&WL about this and why they were accepting CITES II they said they were aware of no such bans. If such exists in Vietnamese law, document it and present it to us and USF&WL, and something would be accomplished, by fact, not suspicion. I’d have trouble believing that you’d consider theft of plants from your propery and theft from plants in, say, North Dakota as being equivalent crimes. So would I, since North Dakota sucks, and I’m sure your back 40 is much better in all regards.

Again, you’re jumping to huge conclusions here Aaron, and I hope only in jest. I’ve learned long ago that I am not God, and as such am not entitled to make such value judgements. That’s not hypocrisy, that’s just being practical.         No flames meant, Bob.

None taken. The interesting thing is my comments, with the possible exception of the one regarding the dealer (I honestly did not remember who made it) certainly weren’t aimed at you, but at provoking thought in the wider audience of this forum. As you probably know, we pretty much agree, I sell nothing but art prop and probably do more CITES I art prop than anyone in this hemisphere. I question the "facts" that get bandied about, especially when they can harm people. In the last few years I’ve seen far more of these "facts" turn out to be false than true, while flagrant violations are right in front of us and go unmentioned. It is, however, your free will and right to choose your battles, and I do applaud that you choose to do battle. It is my choice, and this is the last I will harp on this on this soapbox (and you all know Mick keeps track of these promises with more tenacity than a junkyard dog), to encourage people to consider a bigger backyard. Regards,  Bob

Response:

A question I have yet seen answered is, what is a "LEGITIMATE" source? That seems to be what most of this discussion, and the previous ones on the acaule, boils down to. If the plant is scarce or endangered, should it be from someone who only grows plants from seed or culture or someone who has met the "legal" requirements to sell that plant? If the law says it’s OK to collect a plant (under certain conditions) and sell it, then why should that be looked upon as an "illegitimate" source? There’s a lot of talk about plants being imported that are suppose to be restricted or plants that were "probably" taken from the wild since there are very few in commercial cultivation. I guess everyone has their own standards on what they consider legal. I agree that not all dealers are nice characters and some have a shady past, but to me, if a dealer has the valid permits/licence to sell a plant that can be legally offered for sale, then they have a legitimate right to do so. If I later buy this particular plant, it then becomes my legal property to do with as the law allows. That’s it, period. Some or all of a retailers permits/certificates/licenses may be "legit" (as in not forged or got through bribery) or they may not be legit, but at some point my personal accountability has to stop. As a hobbiest and amateur, how am I to know if a signature is forged or a permit is valid? Now, there is also an issue of morals and ethics with endangered/scarce plants (as well as animals, the environment, to posterity and a litany of others), but we are only talking about legality here. If a legally licensed retailer is selling a legally available plant and has the required paperwork to do so, then any sale he makes to me is legitimate.                                     Bob C.

Response:

I really don’t think anything that has been said is going to change anyone’s mind.  If the orchid in question is one someone wants, do we really ask ourselves if it has entered the country legally?  I really doubt it, it is more likely we ask ourselves if we want to pay the price that is being asked, can we meet its needs, etc, etc.  It would be ideal if all species orchids entered this or any other country via flasked plants only.  Is this likely to happen in the near future?  Very doubtful.  I would be extremely surprised if the legally collected orchids out weighed the illegal ones. Who knows or cares what is happening thousands of miles away.  Sod you, I’m fine.  Bottomline is we are all hypocrites about something.  What’s in it for me? I stated my case over it being hypocritical to care more about local orchids than tropical ones.  I got slapped down for even suggesting it might be true.  Such is life.  Trouble is most people don’t know or care when they are being hypocritical.  It is ironic in recent months that California has admitted it needs more electrical generating plants, everyone is saying yes we do, but you ain’t building the damn thing in my backyard.  Put it in Northern California, put it in Southern California, better yet put it in Nevada or Arizona, just get me cheap electricity and keep the damn plant away from me.  Human nature at its finest.  Although I feel sorry for Californians and their electrical woes, better them than me.  God, what a hypocrite! You know Aaron, their are many people who say New Mexico is a suck ass state and only sun fried simpletons live there.  There are others who love North Dakota and freezing their butt off in winter.  Go figure!! Stephen

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bob spaketh thusly: But there was tremendous condemnation of the sale of collected Cyp acaule, and lots of supposition of illegal collection with no real facts to support it. Things like they claim 400 acres but their nursery licence was for .4 acres don’t cut it, my greenhouses sit on a 600 acre parcel (with Cyp acaule as a matter of fact) but our nursery, that which is greenhouse, is registered in the 10-20,000 square foot category if you check the book. Well, hey, Bob; I don’t say that alone cuts it, either. But you don’t have a conviction in federal court for conspiracy to violate the Lacey act, unlike Minton. You’re not in the business of smuggling plants out of the country, don’t have a criminal record of doing so. He does. There are also issues surrounding whether or not he even has the permits to collect from his own property and sell the plants, which are evidently required in North Carolina. So, hey- no airtight case, but this isn’t court. This is for people who want to make purchases based on the integrity of the dealer, which doesn’t seem to matter much these days anyway. Shortly after that someone posts about all the great bare root plants from Vietnam that were at some sales event. What do you suppose the odds are that they were "legit" by your standards? Just about zero, as Vietnam isn’t recognized for valid CITES export permits- but you know this, of course. Boy, was I waiting for him to get creamed, bare root Vietnamese plants – but not a single response! It’s already illegal to export these plants from Vietnam. Besides, people are tired of the howling and whining (mine in particular, I’m sure), and none of it does any good. Then the post regarding Cyp tibeticum, and the follow up that correctly stated that the plants were probably collected and were difficult to establish and grow (and again I am quite sure of the nursery where this was purchased, and know them well enough to be very certain these plants were imported legally, although there was an attempt by innuendo again a few months ago to insinuate that all these folks sold was suspect because they handled Cyps). If that was me and my reference to Dragon Agro, I stand by it. I don’t doubt they’re importing them legally in the sense that they have CITES permits. I challenge the validity of the permits issued by the country of origin, in the same way that export permits from Peru, Mexico, and Vietnam are suspect. Peter O’Byrne (who used to be inside the CITES permitting system in that part of the world) notes that Vietnam, Malaysia, Papau New Guinea, China, Laos, and Brunei have banned export of ALL orchids. I probably missed a few countries in there. So if China doesn’t produce the export permits, they are being brought in illegally. Importers know they’re breaking the law bringing in wild-collected plants from Mexico, but it happens all the time. It’s also recognized inside the cypripedium trade that the species imported from China are wild-collected, and brought in with forged permits. If it keeps up, we’ll have the entire genus cypripedium covered under CITES Appendix I, which won’t help anyone. If that’s what the growers really want, they’ll get it- which is unfortunate. Cypripediums aren’t well-known in cultivation, and the availability of these plants is primed to explode within the next few years. But orchid growers are impatient, and want the plants for the next season- so they’ll buy what they want, regardless of the source. Many of the species selling for $60-80 per division will be given away free in every boxe of Cracker Jack before long, but until then, the commotion has likely lead to the extirpation of several varieties, and perhaps entire species. We’ll never see Cypripedium macranthos ssp kaminashi in cultivation, which really is a tragedy. I’m just asking for a little consideration, Bob. I’ll howl and whine about American orchids being harvested from the wild more than the ones in Vietnam because _more can be done_ when the plants are taken locally. If you wish to call it hypocrisy, I’ll call it practicality. I’ve not tried, but calling up the Chinese embassy and asking them do tighten down and make sure their CITES export permits are in order isn’t going to fly too well right now. But calling Lowe’s and letting them know one of their suppliers has a federal conviction for issues concerning the sale of illegally-collected wild plants- THAT has an effect. I’d have trouble believing that you’d consider theft of plants from your propery and theft from plants in, say, North Dakota as being equivalent crimes. So would I, since North Dakota sucks, and I’m sure your back 40 is much better in all regards. That’s not hypocrisy, that’s just being practical. No flames meant, Bob. -AJHicks Chandler, AZ

Response:

        Bob spaketh thusly: But there was tremendous condemnation of the sale of collected Cyp acaule, and lots of supposition of illegal collection with no real facts to support it. Things like they claim 400 acres but their nursery licence was for .4 acres don’t cut it, my greenhouses sit on a 600 acre parcel (with Cyp acaule as a matter of fact) but our nursery, that which is greenhouse, is registered in the 10-20,000 square foot category if you check the book.

        Well, hey, Bob; I don’t say that alone cuts it, either. But you don’t have a conviction in federal court for conspiracy to violate the Lacey act, unlike Minton. You’re not in the business of smuggling plants out of the country, don’t have a criminal record of doing so. He does. There are also issues surrounding whether or not he even has the permits to collect from his own property and sell the plants, which are evidently required in North Carolina. So, hey- no airtight case, but this isn’t court. This is for people who want to make purchases based on the integrity of the dealer, which doesn’t seem to matter much these days anyway. Shortly after that someone posts about all the great bare root plants from Vietnam that were at some sales event. What do you suppose the odds are that they were "legit" by your standards?

        Just about zero, as Vietnam isn’t recognized for valid CITES export permits- but you know this, of course. Boy, was I waiting for him to get creamed, bare root Vietnamese plants – but not a single response!

        It’s already illegal to export these plants from Vietnam. Besides, people are tired of the howling and whining (mine in particular, I’m sure), and none of it does any good. Then the post regarding Cyp tibeticum, and the follow up that correctly stated that the plants were probably collected and were difficult to establish and grow (and again I am quite sure of the nursery where this was purchased, and know them well enough to be very certain these plants were imported legally, although there was an attempt by innuendo again a few months ago to insinuate that all these folks sold was suspect because they handled Cyps).

        If that was me and my reference to Dragon Agro, I stand by it. I don’t doubt they’re importing them legally in the sense that they have CITES permits. I challenge the validity of the permits issued by the country of origin, in the same way that export permits from Peru, Mexico, and Vietnam are suspect. Peter O’Byrne (who used to be inside the CITES permitting system in that part of the world) notes that Vietnam, Malaysia, Papau New Guinea, China, Laos, and Brunei have banned export of ALL orchids. I probably missed a few countries in there. So if China doesn’t produce the export permits, they are being brought in illegally.         Importers know they’re breaking the law bringing in wild-collected plants from Mexico, but it happens all the time. It’s also recognized inside the cypripedium trade that the species imported from China are wild-collected, and brought in with forged permits. If it keeps up, we’ll have the entire genus cypripedium covered under CITES Appendix I, which won’t help anyone. If that’s what the growers really want, they’ll get it- which is unfortunate.         Cypripediums aren’t well-known in cultivation, and the availability of these plants is primed to explode within the next few years. But orchid growers are impatient, and want the plants for the next season- so they’ll buy what they want, regardless of the source. Many of the species selling for $60-80 per division will be given away free in every boxe of Cracker Jack before long, but until then, the commotion has likely lead to the extirpation of several varieties, and perhaps entire species. We’ll never see Cypripedium macranthos ssp kaminashi in cultivation, which really is a tragedy.         I’m just asking for a little consideration, Bob. I’ll howl and whine about American orchids being harvested from the wild more than the ones in Vietnam because _more can be done_ when the plants are taken locally. If you wish to call it hypocrisy, I’ll call it practicality. I’ve not tried, but calling up the Chinese embassy and asking them do tighten down and make sure their CITES export permits are in order isn’t going to fly too well right now. But calling Lowe’s and letting them know one of their suppliers has a federal conviction for issues concerning the sale of illegally-collected wild plants- THAT has an effect. I’d have trouble believing that you’d consider theft of plants from your propery and theft from plants in, say, North Dakota as being equivalent crimes. So would I, since North Dakota sucks, and I’m sure your back 40 is much better in all regards. That’s not hypocrisy, that’s just being practical.         No flames meant, Bob.         -AJHicks         Chandler, AZ

Response:

but as you noted, it’s simple enough to see which species they offer as propagules in flask and as seedlings to at least get a sense that they’re legit. It’s even easier to ask a few key questions, and see if they use a trowel or a flask as their source.

There are a couple of different things going on here, but your statement above illustrates the point I tried earlier to make that we only care if they are collected in our own back yard. You equate legitimate with propagated in a lab, and illegimate with collected ("use a trowel"). This is fine, and I in fact mostly agree in principle and practice. However, it is perfectly legal to collect Cyp. acaule from your own land or with permission from anothers private land in my State and sell it if you are a nursery operator, so a trowel is also legitimate. But there was tremendous condemnation of the sale of collected Cyp acaule, and lots of supposition of illegal collection with no real facts to support it. Things like they claim 400 acres but their nursery licence was for .4 acres don’t cut it, my greenhouses sit on a 600 acre parcel (with Cyp acaule as a matter of fact) but our nursery, that which is greenhouse, is registered in the 10-20,000 square foot category if you check the book. Again, I’m not defending the people that were selling to Lowe’s, just pointing out that the outrage was really over the fact they were collected instead of lab propagated, and we try to make ourselves feel more righteous by trying to convict the seller of illegal collection by innuendo. Shortly after that someone posts about all the great bare root plants from Vietnam that were at some sales event. What do you suppose the odds are that they were "legit" by your standards? Boy, was I waiting for him to get creamed, bare root Vietnamese plants – but not a single response! Then the post regarding Cyp tibeticum, and the follow up that correctly stated that the plants were probably collected and were difficult to establish and grow (and again I am quite sure of the nursery where this was purchased, and know them well enough to be very certain these plants were imported legally, although there was an attempt by innuendo again a few months ago to insinuate that all these folks sold was suspect because they handled Cyps). Well, by the same reasoning, I was waiting for the outrage that these difficult to grow collected Cyps (boy sounds just like acaule, doesn’t it?) were being sold, and saw none. That was I believe Good Friday, and I waited til the day after Easter for the outrage to build, even though it was swift over Cyp acaule; this was a weekend when maybe folks were just not at their computers. But, when nothing was said, on monday I pointed out that maybe Stephen was right, we only care about collection when its in our own back yards. It would really appear that he is correct. I voiced the same opinion a year or two ago on one of these forums, and got about the same response that Stephen did, righteous indignation and denial. But if you follow the types of response created on these issues, in my opinion it really supports that we are quite hypocritical regarding these issues. I don’t exempt myself, I feel the same visceral response, but I really think we should try to open our eyes. Regards,  Bob

Response:

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