The Orchid Garden

Lady's Slippers Available?

Question:

Harold – no doubt you have the necesary bacteria in your ground to keep them alive – few of us have that.   You mentioned Carson Whitlow.  I have also peviously mentioned Spangle Creek Labs.  Both these groups are competent growers and do not collect plants from the wild.  If one wants to try to grow cips, he/she should contact one of those companies. I may try again sometime, but I just don’t think our climate here is suitable, nor is my greenhouse suitable.  I have at last learned how to grow and bloom disas, and that’s enough for me! Cheers, Phil Harold Slater

: That’s funny…. I don’t have a lab or a Phd in Botany but I have four : species of Cyps growing in my garden (some for the past 12 years). Most : were rescued plants. The Cyp. reginae have multiplied and the one single : stemmed plant is now two clumps with 7 and 10 growths respectively. The : Cyp.c.parviflorum and pubescens are also multiple clumps (from singles) : and also have been moved a number of times. I have also checked the roots : of my plants when they have been moved and have never seen the telltale : white webbing of mychorrizal fungi. I’m not disputing the fact that non- : photosynthetic seedlings (protocorms, pre-vernalized) need it but I never : seen it on adult plants.

Response:

:   1) Dug from private land with compensation, which gives you an idea of : much the landowner appreciates rare plants over $$$ or…. :   2) Dug from either public or private property without permission, which : gives you an idea of how ethical the profiteers are. You forgot one important source.     3) plants dug from sites doomed by development. There are a couple of        nurseries who obtain plants from land that is about to turned into        housing subdivisions or industrial parks. Unlike the U.S. up here in        Canada we don’t have an E.S.A. to protect plants that are on private        property. If someone buys a tract of land that may be prime orchid        growing habitat they are only subject to a token environmental        assessment based on the future development. Even if the land that was        scheduled for development contained colonies of rare orchids they        would still be allowed to bulldoze it over. It has happened and still        happens today. I can remember numerous sites in the Toronto area        where many species of native orchids (Cypripedium, Plantanthera,        Galearis, Liparis, Goodyera to name a few) are now ugly housing or        half empty industrial parks.        I have rescued a number of different genera from these doomed        sites and have in a few instances relocated some (succesfully)        to secret spots in area parks and greenspaces.     To say it’s wrong to dig up wild plants is correct especially if they     are in secure habitat but if the land they are on is about to be paved     it would be wrong to leave them to be destroyed. Harold

Response:

Rumor is that the lady’s slipper is an endangered plant, supposedly the only native N.A. orchid. The Lady’s Slipper is NOT the only native orchid in North America…not by a long shot!  There are several species here in California, such as the stream orchid Epipactis, the Bog orchid Habenaria, and the Phantom orchid Eburophyton, among others. Gary

Perhaps he meant the only native lady’s slipper.  And, yes, there are I believe several hundred native species of orchids in the U.S. from near-arctic Cypripediums in Alaska to tropical species growing in the Everglades and Big Cypress Swamp.  I personally know the locations of nearly twenty species of orchid in the Florida Big Bend area, most within 30 miles of my house. —Prem

Response:

No matter whether protected or not, rare or plentiful, one would be foolish to remove cips from the wild because they simply will not grow for you unless you are a Phd in botany and have a fully equipped lab at your disposal.  So, do everyone a favor and dismiss from your mind the idea of raising those charming little lady slippers at home. All you will wind up doing is needlessly killing some beautiful orchids. Cheers, Phil

Response:

: No matter whether protected or not, rare or plentiful, one would be : foolish to remove cips from the wild because they simply will not : grow for you unless you are a Phd in botany and have a fully : equipped lab at your disposal.  So, do everyone a favor and dismiss : from your mind the idea of raising those charming little lady That’s funny…. I don’t have a lab or a Phd in Botany but I have four species of Cyps growing in my garden (some for the past 12 years). Most were rescued plants. The Cyp. reginae have multiplied and the one single stemmed plant is now two clumps with 7 and 10 growths respectively. The Cyp.c.parviflorum and pubescens are also multiple clumps (from singles) and also have been moved a number of times. I have also checked the roots of my plants when they have been moved and have never seen the telltale white webbing of mychorrizal fungi. I’m not disputing the fact that non- photosynthetic seedlings (protocorms, pre-vernalized) need it but I never seen it on adult plants. For those with web access try Carson Whitlows (Cyphaven) web site.   http://www.netins.net/showcase/novacon/cyphaven/cyphaven.htm Harold

Response:

Get ahold of a copy of the AOS Bull, May 1993, which has a reference list of articles on the Propagation of Orchid Species from Seed, page 512-513. (Fred Bergman)

Response:

Re. cypripediums, Spangle Creek Labs., West 2802 Depot Springs Road, Spangle, WA 99031 (509) 245-3253 has seed grown plants of several different species of cypripediums available. Please NOTE: I am in no way affiliated with or recommending this business, I just know that they have seed grown plants available. I have printed information on pollination, seed sowing and garden culture of cypripediums. The information is not in electronic form, but I will be happy to send copies to anyone who is interested and who sends a surface mail address. Good growing Bruce Ide

Response:

I suggest you contact Spangle Creek Labs.  I believe they are the experts at raising cips.  Please call Spangle Creek Labs Bill Steele 509-245-3253 Bill is extremely knowledgable, and he sells only what he produces. Cheers, Phil Tom

: Rumor is that the lady’s slipper is an endangered plant, supposedly the : only native N.A. orchid. Does that mean there is no way to acquire any to : grow? Perhaps even from seed, if that is viable? Since they grow in New : England, presumably a hothouse would not be required. Anyone with : information, tips, guidance, pointers, advice, insight, sources, etc. is : encouraged to share same. All information greatly welcomed. : — : "Inside every old person is a young person wondering what happened." : –Terry Pratchett. "Babbitt was vaguely frightened." –Sinclair Lewis.

Response:

In the state of Georgia, both our lady slippers (Cyprepedium acalue and C. pubescens) are state protected plants.  State law regulates how they may be handled.  On private land, one can do anything one wants, BUT if you transport the plants across county line FOR ANY REASON you are committing a crime unless you have a permit issued by the Department of Natural Resources. Neither orchid is particularly uncommon, and the pink is almost abundant, given proper habitat.  They are HEAVILY collected wherever they grow that is convenient to roads or trails, and that is the reason for their state status. Make the assumption that all Cyprepediums are wild collected that you find in the trade and you won’t go wrong.  Check with your state to find out the law. I have transplanted quite a number of C. acaule as part of plant rescues, and find that at 20% survival rate after five years is an excellent result.  And that is with taking about 5 gallons !!! of soil with each plant! It pains me to find craters in the woods where orchids have been "harvested."  If you really want native Cyprepediums, get involved with a nature center or state native plant organization and help with rescues. Usually there are more plants that nature centers, botanical gardens or preserves can handle and the folks will let you take some. Take as much soil as you can, and DON’T expect the plant to do well if your site looks much different from where you dug it. Digging wild orchids should be considered a LAST DITCH effort to save, with the realization that success is not assured. Unless you are part of an organized and legitimate rescue, DON’T DIG!

Response:

   The situation is very much akin to the problems surrounding native species of carnivorous plants- most notably, the Venus’ Flytrap (Dionea), which has its own special set of problems: limited range, limited cultural conditions for survival, high rate of problems with digging, is rapidly becoming endangered in the wild, lax enforcement and poor management of existing colonies in terms of protection. DESPITE the fact that it is readily propagated in vitro in the lab through known, accepted and well-tested techniques for tissue culture, the people _still_ keep digging the damn things!! So…. I think that, even if reliable, repeatable techniques are developed for either tissue culture or seed germination, big companies will keep selling Cyps (and who knows WHAT else) through the mail, with deleterious results.

Actually, Dionea have a wider range of tolerable climate than one would think. Although they are native exclusively to the Carolinas, there is a thriving introduced colony growing about 30 miles from my home here in Tallahassee, FL. A local botanist I talked to believes they were introduced by humans, as there was a point where this bog (particularly rich in Calapogon and Pogonia orchids) did not have any Dionea, then it did.  This particular colony seems to be doing quite well, as there are probably 500 or so plants in a small area, mature plants flowering when in season, with plant sizes from seedling to huge.  I have also successfully germinated some from seed and planted the seedlings in a bog closer to my house.  I am not sure how they are doing as I have not visited that spot in several years.   Your point about whether or not native orchids have been successfully flasked is well-taken though.  I still believe that it has not been reliably accomplished. —Prem Any AOS members seen anything regarding flasking of Cyps or other native N.A. orchids?

Response:

Rumor is that the lady’s slipper is an endangered plant, supposedly the only native N.A. orchid. Does that mean there is no way to acquire any to grow? Perhaps even from seed, if that is viable? Since they grow in New England, presumably a hothouse would not be required. Anyone with information, tips, guidance, pointers, advice, insight, sources, etc. is encouraged to share same. All information greatly welcomed. — "Inside every old person is a young person wondering what happened." –Terry Pratchett. "Babbitt was vaguely frightened." –Sinclair Lewis.

Response:

Rumor is that the lady’s slipper is an endangered plant, supposedly the only native N.A. orchid.

Uh, well there are several species of lady’s slippers native to NA, a couple of which are endangered and several of which are threatened.  But there are also a huge variety of other orchids native to NA, some of which are fairly common and others of which are rarer than the rarest lady’s slipper. Does that mean there is no way to acquire any to grow? Perhaps even from seed, if that is viable? Since they grow in New England, presumably a hothouse would not be required. Anyone with information, tips, guidance, pointers, advice, insight, sources, etc. is encouraged to share same. All information greatly welcomed.

No, you can still obtain many species of lady’s slippers, but some (most?) of the sources are stocked by wild collected plants.  I highly highly recomend that you chech out each source thouroughly before buying to make absolutely sure they don’t sell wild collected plants.  Only buy plants that the company obtained by either growing from seed or buying from places that grow their plants from seed. A source of information I would suggest is the North American Native Orchid Journal.  They can be contacted through the editor at: 15 Dresden St. Jamaica Plain, MA  02130-4407 If you need more info/recomendations, contact me (I’m no expert, though) Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — "Inside every old person is a young person wondering what happened." –Terry Pratchett. "Babbitt was vaguely frightened." –Sinclair Lewis.

Response:

For what it’s worth, the "pink and white" lady slipper is the state flower of Minnestota.  They are quite rare there.  The Minnestota department of natural resoures and the University of Minnestota Depts of Botany/Agronomy/Horticulture would be good starting points for information. dbrian

Response:

Rumor is that the lady’s slipper is an endangered plant, supposedly the only native N.A. orchid. Does that mean there is no way to acquire any to grow? Perhaps even from seed, if that is viable? Since they grow in New England, presumably a hothouse would not be required. Anyone with information, tips, guidance, pointers, advice, insight, sources, etc. is encouraged to share same. All information greatly welcomed.

Aaron Hick’s orchid FAQ’s view on this is that the requirement of native N.A. orchids is so specialised that if you don’t have them growing on your property already, you won’t be able to keep them alive. It recommends that you don’t even think of trying. And from what I hear, growing any orchid from seed is not something you are likely to succeed at without ‘laboratory-like’ conditions. OK they must manage it themselves in the wild – but in the wild the seeds get exposed to a great variety of conditions, and it doesn’t matter if only one in thousands (millions?) actually manages to grow. — Clarke Brunt (CCB), Principal Software Engineer, Laser-Scan Ltd, Science Park, Milton Rd, CAMBRIDGE, CB4 4FY, England. Tel: (+44) (0)1223 420414; Fax: 420044

Response:

Any AOS members seen anything regarding flasking of Cyps or other native N.A. orchids?

Carson Whitlow, of Adel, Iowa, has been hybridizing Cypripediums, with the eventual goal of creating hybrids that most of us can grow.  He spends an incredible amount of time creating conditions for his parent stocks, and still looses some.  Yes, he does flask his seedlings, and has registered a couple of hybrids with AOS.   Spangle Creek Labs is reputed to grow several species of Cyps in flasks, but I haven’t seen their setup.  (I have seen Carson’s flasks and hybrids.) I work with native Cypripedium hybrids in their native habitat: C. pubescens, C. candidum and C. reginae.  Most people simply are not going to be successful growing these, and it breaks my heart when I find holes where the year before there were healthy populations. From watching Carson’s growing methods, I think I can say that growing the pickiest of the tropical orchids is a little easier than Cyp growing. I would urge people not to purchase any of the Cypripedium plants you may find available unless you’ve personal knowledge of how that plant was raised.  If the market isn’t there, maybe some of the orchid thieves will go home. I’ve heard tales (apocryphal?) that there’s a 24 hour guard on England’s last native Cypripedium (note the singular) during blooming time.  The rest of theirs were collected to death for gardens.

Response:

        !snip! Mike,  Do you have information on how best to check sources to make sure that they are seed grown?  I find your statement puzzling that some (most?) sources are stocked by wild collected plants.  Everyone I’ve talked to about native orchids seem to be concerned about not getting wild orchids but seed grown. I’m not disputing you but just purchased a dozen Cyp. acaule from a local source and just assumed that they were "legal".  Which brings up another point.  I’ve also assumed that the collecting of any native orchids was illegal.  If this assumption is true, would ‘most’ nurseries carrying them be selling illegal plants?  Someone please help out here.  I think I am making too many assumptions.         !snip!         <set soapbox mode ON         The BEST way (and, IMHO, the ONLY way) to tell if someone is propagating orchids by seed is to ask to see the facilities. Period. The only alternatives would be if they have published in some reputable journal (AOS Bulletin, etc.), replete with pictures, their flasking facilities and culture facilities. Any excuses against this is HOGWASH for the simple reason that pix of Cyps in flasks would certainly not mean giving away any trade secrets, or anything like that; ask to see the racks of glassware with baby Cyps in them, or protocorms, or whatever. Nothing will make me happier than seeing green Cyp material in vitro.         And, well, yes- it’s true. Most everyone who sells native species of orchids (with the possible exception of that imported species of Epipactis, which I found growing in my front yard in PA one day will be selling plants that were dug from the wild. Two possibilities if they are dug from the wild:   1) Dug from private land with compensation, which gives you an idea of how much the landowner appreciates rare plants over $$$ or….   2) Dug from either public or private property without permission, which gives you an idea of how ethical the profiteers are.         The situation is very much akin to the problems surrounding native species of carnivorous plants- most notably, the Venus’ Flytrap (Dionea), which has its own special set of problems: limited range, limited cultural conditions for survival, high rate of problems with digging, is rapidly becoming endangered in the wild, lax enforcement and poor management of existing colonies in terms of protection. DESPITE the fact that it is readily propagated in vitro in the lab through known, accepted and well-tested techniques for tissue culture, the people _still_ keep digging the damn things!! So…. I think that, even if reliable, repeatable techniques are developed for either tissue culture or seed germination, big companies will keep selling Cyps (and who knows WHAT else) through the mail, with deleterious results.         I have not seen anything in the literature re: Cyps in culture. I have heard a lot of mumbling about labs having success, and this, that and the other thing: fine. When they publish (or it is brough to my attention that they HAVE published), and their techniques are verified- I’ll be a little happier about the expectancy of such species. So, I’m taking the "Show-Me" route, rather than any other, as too much is at stake: the survival of already-threatened species.         As for how to determine if the plants are legal or not:         Buy only established, potted specimens. Ask if you can see their wintering facilites; this alone should stump 95% of them, if they slap together some lame story. Grill them- I’m not kidding. Ask how they over-winter them. Ask about re-potting particulars; ask them about how well the micorrhizial fungi survive repotting (if orchids are the same as pine trees, there should be white, web-like gunk around the roots; I don’t know about orchids, as I never dug one up!). Ask them about what kind of mix do they use; alkaline? Sandy? Porous? Leaf-mold? If they don’t like answering your questions, or can’t, be suspicious. If they can’t tell you what propagation techniques they use- forget it. They’re worse off than that guy you bought that used Hyundai off of.         I think that ESTABLISHED plants would be the only way to go; there’s simply no other way to tell. And I’m not saying it can’t be done- ALL orchids can be propagated in the lab, it’s simply a matter of WHEN it’s going to be achieved, and if it’s efficient enough to be cheaper than collecting them from the wild.         Most people will discover that the Cyps grow under such a narrow set of constraints (which I _wish_ I could pin down; as a geochemistry student, I think it lies in the soil- contenting the fungi as well as the plant), they will probably not thrive in your backyard unless they are already growing there.         Anyway… *dink* *puts in his $.05 worth, for inflation)*         Dissenting views are invited; I’m feeling more self-righteous than usual, so I’ve probably PO’d some people. And, for the record, I did purchase 2 native species of Cyps (not acaule, I forget which ones now) when I was much younger and just getting started… they all died. One flowered; I think it was C. kentuckiense. I’ll never buy native species again, and I’ve not bought a jungle-collected orchid since 1985, to the best of my knowledge. *sighs* Kinda wish I could be in on one of those "slash-and-burn save crews", and take up the plants after they cut down the trees, before they burn them. It’s how they discovered the 3 known plants of Epidendrum ilense, now extinct in the wild.         <soapbox mode OFF         -AJHicks         NMTech         Dept. of Entropy

Response:

Rumor is that the lady’s slipper is an endangered plant, supposedly the only native N.A. orchid.

The Lady’s Slipper is NOT the only native orchid in North America…not by a long shot!  There are several species here in California, such as the stream orchid Epipactis, the Bog orchid Habenaria, and the Phantom orchid Eburophyton, among others. Gary

Response:

No, you can still obtain many species of lady’s slippers, but some (most?) of the sources are stocked by wild collected plants.  I highly highly recomend that you chech out each source thouroughly before buying to make absolutely sure they don’t sell wild collected plants.  Only buy plants that the company obtained by either growing from seed or buying from places that grow their plants from seed.

Mike,  Do you have information on how best to check sources to make sure that they are seed grown?  I find your statement puzzling that some (most?) sources are stocked by wild collected plants.  Everyone I’ve talked to about native orchids seem to be concerned about not getting wild orchids but seed grown.   I’m not disputing you but just purchased a dozen Cyp. acaule from a local source and just assumed that they were "legal".  Which brings up another point.  I’ve also assumed that the collecting of any native orchids was illegal.  If this assumption is true, would ‘most’ nurseries carrying them be selling illegal plants?  Someone please help out here.  I think I am making too many assumptions.

Response:

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