The Orchid Garden

Patents & Orchids

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As an aside: the _goal_ of the genetic manipulation; 9" "flat" white Phals? or virus resistance? And too, vanilla is a "cash crop" . . . .         The goal of genetic manipulation can be whatever you want it to be, but 9" flat white phals aren’t going to be made with recombinant DNA technology any time soon.  Many reasons for this.  1) Too darn expensive. 2) You would need a gene or set of genes to give you 9" flowers…  Don’t know where those are, and you can’t just make them up.  You can modify things in small ways, but you can’t create things from scratch.  While recombinant DNA technology is not nearly expensive these days as prior days, orchids just aren’t a big enough cash crop to warrant a million dollar upgrade.         Should I create a 9" flat white phal through the mystical arts of biotechnology, I would want to patent it.  Mostly because of reason 1.  Need to pay for the process.  But I don’t see much logic behind patenting a particular hybrid or clone generated in the traditional way.  Also, I would like to see somebody sucessfully defend their patent.  I can just as easily change all my tags, rename a clone something else, and propagate the hell out of it.  Wouldn’t be ethical, but it wouldn’t be prosecutable either. Same goes for breeding, when plants are registered clonal names are irrelevant anyway.  Unless you can patent an entire cross it would be hard to eliminate your patent material from the breeding pool.         All of this goes to the heart of the question.  How -would- you defend your patent assuming you can get one and want one?  It isn’t impossible, DNA fingerprinting or other methods might work.  Expensive though, and you would need quite a bit of initial investment.  Would also be difficult (but not impossible) to tell one clone from another, you would need a highly specific set of markers.  The practical upshot is, if you can defend your patent, you are a major corporation with substantial resources, technical and legal.  Patents aren’t for us small folks, and small infringments are unlikely to draw the fire of the major corporation.  They are protecting themselves from other large commercial enterprises. Rob

Rob and I have discussed this before, but more along the lines of inserting color genes from non Orchid plants. If Doritis x Phalaenopsis = Doritenopsis, then Petunia x Phalaenopsis = ? An obcenity in my view, neither entirely Petunia nor Orchid. If we assume it happens at some point in the future, it’s a sure thing they won’t be available from us Orchid breeding is a game of probabilities. You take plants with flowers having known, desirable traits, make your cross and hope for the best. The numbers say certain things will happen, given a large enough population. But who’s to say that the ONE plant you really need will live long enough to bloom? Nature actually works against us on this. It’s all a gamble and the gamble is what keeps us all intriqued. -Rod- Venger’s Orchids Website http://www.vengers.com/

Response:

Stewart Orchids has about a dozen patents on specific clones, so no one else can meristem them. Does the patent cover the clone as proprietary property? Can one of those plants be used for sexual reproduction? For further breeding with non-patent orchids? Reply here or e-mail . . . thanx! -Bob BOTANA

They can be used for sexual reproduction. Matt Swift – residence – Ventura, CA employment – Stewart Orchids – Carpinteria, CA http://www.stewartorchids.com 800-621-2450

Response:

As an aside: the _goal_ of the genetic manipulation; 9" "flat" white Phals? or virus resistance? And too, vanilla is a "cash crop" . . . .

        The goal of genetic manipulation can be whatever you want it to be, but 9" flat white phals aren’t going to be made with recombinant DNA technology any time soon.  Many reasons for this.  1) Too darn expensive. 2) You would need a gene or set of genes to give you 9" flowers…  Don’t know where those are, and you can’t just make them up.  You can modify things in small ways, but you can’t create things from scratch.  While recombinant DNA technology is not nearly expensive these days as prior days, orchids just aren’t a big enough cash crop to warrant a million dollar upgrade.             Should I create a 9" flat white phal through the mystical arts of biotechnology, I would want to patent it.  Mostly because of reason 1.  Need to pay for the process.  But I don’t see much logic behind patenting a particular hybrid or clone generated in the traditional way.  Also, I would like to see somebody sucessfully defend their patent.  I can just as easily change all my tags, rename a clone something else, and propagate the hell out of it.  Wouldn’t be ethical, but it wouldn’t be prosecutable either. Same goes for breeding, when plants are registered clonal names are irrelevant anyway.  Unless you can patent an entire cross it would be hard to eliminate your patent material from the breeding pool.           All of this goes to the heart of the question.  How -would- you defend your patent assuming you can get one and want one?  It isn’t impossible, DNA fingerprinting or other methods might work.  Expensive though, and you would need quite a bit of initial investment.  Would also be difficult (but not impossible) to tell one clone from another, you would need a highly specific set of markers.  The practical upshot is, if you can defend your patent, you are a major corporation with substantial resources, technical and legal.  Patents aren’t for us small folks, and small infringments are unlikely to draw the fire of the major corporation.  They are protecting themselves from other large commercial enterprises. Rob  Rob’s rules to live by:                        |     (1) There is always room for one more orchid. |   (2) There is no rule 2.                       | Future starving PhD.    (2a) When one has insufficient credit to buy |  

Response:

Stewart Orchids has about a dozen patents on specific clones, so no one else can meristem them.

Does the patent cover the clone as proprietary property? Can one of those plants be used for sexual reproduction? For further breeding with non-patent orchids? Reply here or e-mail . . . thanx! -Bob BOTANA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Matt Swift – residence – Ventura, CA employment – Stewart Orchids – Carpinteria, CA http://www.stewartorchids.com 800-621-2450

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Patent of hybrid orchid crosses in light of the "poised & ready" reports re: "engineered orchid genera" for the mass/global pot-trade & discount markets. We would appreciate _any_ links, leads, URLS, citations, etc. on _any_ aspect of that topic. Check the "fine print" on hybrid roses’ tags -Bob Bob, By "etc.", does that cover opinions as well? HORRIBLE idea, patenting Orchids. While I see the "value" of doing so, in monetary terms, in artistic terms it’s a disaster.

The argument, as explained to me, is that a hybrid is a result of mental determinants and therefore would fall under "intellectual property" . . . which non-lawyer me has understood to be a _copyright_ arena. It is the possibility of engineering new orchids (Genera?!) that is probably most likely to evoke patents: "engineered" yeast is an example. I agree, Rod, that is a horrible idea and one that would change many aspects of this hobby. As an aside: the _goal_ of the genetic manipulation; 9" "flat" white Phals? or virus resistance? And too, vanilla is a "cash crop" . . . . -Bob BOTANA   We’ve done our own hybrids, not a huge – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – number, ~three dozen bloomed out so far. Some good, some lousy, one stunning. And we’ve got a hundred or more in the lab. As far as I’m concerned, anyone that wants to use them for their own breeding purposes is more than welcome to. If someone happens to be smarter than I am and does a cross I should have, hey, more power to him. IMHO -Rod- Venger’s Orchids Website http://www.vengers.com/

Response:

HORRIBLE idea, patenting Orchids. While I see the "value" of doing so, in monetary terms, in artistic terms it’s a disaster. We’ve done our own hybrids, not a huge number, ~three dozen bloomed out so far. Some good, some lousy, one stunning. And we’ve got a hundred or more in the lab. As far as I’m concerned, anyone that wants to use them for their own breeding purposes is more than welcome to. If someone happens to be smarter than I am and does a cross I should have, hey, more power to him. IMHO -Rod-

Stewart Orchids has about a dozen patents on specific clones, so no one else can meristem them. Matt Swift – residence – Ventura, CA employment – Stewart Orchids – Carpinteria, CA http://www.stewartorchids.com 800-621-2450

Response:

The table I showed you? That came directly from Patent no. 5,642,586, awarded Jul 1, 1997, to Jerome A. Rodder. N=1? I’m no scientist, but even I know that N=1 is not a sample large enough to draw any conclusions. Except maybe "The plants didn’t die". Whatever. I ran tests for my own curiosity only. My populations were N=96. -Rod- Venger’s Orchids

A Patent is nominally secured with less; N=0 is more than sufficient…. Patents are issued to protect the inventor or developer from other parties’ use of proprietary design/data/etc. Which brings up a new topic (Thankfully!) The Patent of hybrid orchid crosses in light of the "poised & ready" reports re: "engineered orchid genera" for the mass/global pot-trade & discount markets. We would appreciate _any_ links, leads, URLS, citations, etc. on _any_ aspect of that topic. Check the "fine print" on hybrid roses’ tags -Bob

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The table I showed you? That came directly from Patent no. 5,642,586, awarded Jul 1, 1997, to Jerome A. Rodder. N=1? I’m no scientist, but even I know that N=1 is not a sample large enough to draw any conclusions. Except maybe "The plants didn’t die". Whatever. I ran tests for my own curiosity only. My populations were N=96. -Rod- Venger’s Orchids A Patent is nominally secured with less; N=0 is more than sufficient…. Patents are issued to protect the inventor or developer from other parties’ use of proprietary design/data/etc. Which brings up a new topic (Thankfully!) The Patent of hybrid orchid crosses in light of the "poised & ready" reports re: "engineered orchid genera" for the mass/global pot-trade & discount markets. We would appreciate _any_ links, leads, URLS, citations, etc. on _any_ aspect of that topic. Check the "fine print" on hybrid roses’ tags -Bob

Bob, By "etc.", does that cover opinions as well? HORRIBLE idea, patenting Orchids. While I see the "value" of doing so, in monetary terms, in artistic terms it’s a disaster. We’ve done our own hybrids, not a huge number, ~three dozen bloomed out so far. Some good, some lousy, one stunning. And we’ve got a hundred or more in the lab. As far as I’m concerned, anyone that wants to use them for their own breeding purposes is more than welcome to. If someone happens to be smarter than I am and does a cross I should have, hey, more power to him. IMHO -Rod- Venger’s Orchids Website http://www.vengers.com/

Response:

Filed under: Phalaenopsis Orchid

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